On motion of Mr. HARRIS, The convention then adjourned until to-mor- section, row morning at nine o'clock.

Tuesday]

GOWER-MARVIN-CLARKE, of J.-PARVIN-HARRIS.

[February 17th

of Governor, shall issue writs of election to fill a majority of all the members shall be required such vacancies."

There being no amendments offered to this section,

Public and Secret Sessions.

Section fourteen was then read, as follows:

to pass a law over the Governor's veto.

Mr. CLARKE, of Johnson. I would second the motion in a little different shape. I would prefer a motion in this form. I wish to strike out the words "two-thirds," and insert "present," so that it would read, "if after such consideration it again pass both Houses, by yeas

"The doors of each House shall be open, ex-and nays, by a majority of the members of each cept on such occasions as, in the opinion of the House, may require secresy."

There being no amendments offered to this section,

Adjournment Over.

Section fifteen was then read, as follows: "Neit' er House shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which they may be sitting."

No amendments being offered to that section,

House present," &c.

I desire to say upon this subject that I have never been favorable to the exercise of this veto power. I regard it as anti-republican in its character, and yet I admit that there is some force in the argument, that this veto power has done some good, though it has done much harm.

The only advantage, it seems to me, that there is in the exercise of this power, is to again call the attention of the legislature to the bill upon which this power has been exercised, thereby giving them an opportunity for reflection and reconsideration, if they have been hasty in their action. It appears to me, if after such reflection and reconsideration, they shall still be of the opinion that it is for the interests of the people that the bill should pass, then the legislature, as the agents of the people, ought to have the "Bills may originate in either House, and power to pass it. If there is anything flagrant may be altered, amended, or rejected by the oth-in an act which is thus vetoed, after the reasons er; and every bill, having passed both houses, shall be signed by the Speaker and President of their respective houses."

Introduction and passage of Bills.

Section sixteen was then read, as follows:

There being no amendments offered to the

sixteenth section

Velo.

Section seventeen was then read as follows: "Every bill which shall have passed the General Assembly, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the Governor. If he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with his objections, to the House in which it originated, which shall enter the same upon the journal and proceed to reconsider it; if, after such reconsideration, it again pass both Houses, by yeas and nays, by a majority of two-thirds of the members of each House present, it shall become a law, notwithstanding the Governor's objections. If any bill shall not be returned within three days after it shall have been presented to him, Sunday excepted, the same shall be a law in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the General Assembly, by adjournment, prevent such return."

Mr. GOWER. I have for some time thought that the requisition of a vote of two-thirds of the General Assembly to pass a law over a veto was of questionable propriety. I have heard the subject spoken of very frequently, and I have heard much complaint of the power which the President has in the general government, of exercising the veto power. I wish to offer an amendment, that it shall require seven-twelfths instead of two-thirds, to pass a law over the Governor's veto. Mr. MARVIN.

of the Governor are given for his veto, if the legislature possess the ordinary judgment and prudence of men, they will consider those objections, and will come to a conclusion as to whether they are well founded or not. I move to strike out the words "two-thirds" and insert "present," so that it will require a majority of the "members of each house present," to pass a law over the Governor's veto.

Mr. PARVIN. I have no wish to enter upon a discussion of the propriety of the proposed amendment. I only rose to say that after the committee had fully considered this matter, they came to the conclusion that they could not do better than adopt the section, upon this subject, as it stands in the present constitution. I consider that there is no danger in the exercise of this veto power, and that it is a safe and salutary restriction upon the hasty action of the legislature. I think the gentleman who offered this amendment will concede that the exercise of this power was a benefit to his constituents the last winter. It was exercised several times, and I have not yet heard much complaint of its exercise. It is a subject which has attracted public attention in every State in the Union, and for which provision has been made in the constitutions of all the States. After looking at the subject in all its phases, the committee came to the conclusion that they could adopt no better plan than that of adhering to the provision upon this subject in the present constitution, which they considered to be a safe and salutary restriction upon hasty and inconsiderate legislation.

Mr. HARRIS. I would ask what motion is really before the committee? There have been I would make the motion that three different motions made.

Tuesday]

HARRIS-PALMER-GOWER.

[February 17th

The CHAIRMAN. Two of them were not and it was voted down with scarcely a corporal's seconded, and the motion now before the com- guard to sustain it. The veto power, when it is mittee is that made by the gentleman from John-qualified, may operate well; but it is giving too son, [Mr. Clarke.] much power into the hands of the executive officer of the State, to entrust him with the unqualified exercise of this power.

Mr. HARRIS. I hope that will not prevail, and I hope the provision upon this subject will remain just as it stands in the present constitution. I know that a great deal has been said about its being anti-democratic and anti-republican. I believe if gentlemen will sit down and examine the history of the vetoes that have taken place, either in the national or the state governments, they will find that they have been almost universally sustained by the people. I look upon the executive in these cases as more directly the representative of the will of the people, than are the general assembly. He generally acts for the whole people, and the expression of all the people is taken in his elec

tion.

Gentlemen have said that it has operated well so far in the history of the country. Grant that it has operated, as a general thing, pretty well; it is wrong in principle, and may work badly. We all know that a Governor of a State is elected by the people, without their having any great knowledge of his legislative powers; but when they vote for members of the General Assembly, they know they are voting for men who are to make their laws, and they vote for them with an express understanding of the opinions they entertain in regard to certain leading measures of legislation. When the people elect a majority in both branches of the Assembly in favor of a law of any kind, the Governor should not be allowed to interpose a veto, which would require a two-thirds vote to overcome it. I think that in most of the States where they have had this provision of a two-thirds vote to overcome the Governor's veto, and where they have recently formed new Constitutions, they have discarded this principle. Some of them have left this principle out altogether, while others have adopted it, but qualified, as it is proposed to do here. Upon an examination of the constitutions of the different States, I find that in thirteen States the veto power exists as it is in our old Constitution; and in eighteen others, either no veto is allowed at all, or else they have the qual

There is another thing to be considered in connection with this matter. Many of the acts which are vetoed are passed by a system of logrolling. One member, who has a favorite project which he desires to carry, combines his influence with another member, who has also some project to get through the legislature, and by this system of log-rolling they get their measures passed. The Governor has only the interests of the people in view, and has no interest in aiding special matters of legislation, which may be passed by any log-rolling system. I could refer our friends upon the other side to the history of the last General Assembly, as a sufficient reason for supporting the veto power at this time. I believe the exercise of this pow-ified veto, which is now proposed by the gentleer has been sustained, in nine cases out of ten, whenever it has been used by the Governor.

man from Johnson, [Mr. Clarke.] In ten of these States, the qualified veto exists, while in Mr. PALMER. I am in favor of the amend- the other eight, no veto at all is allowed. In ment offered by the gentleman from Johnson, the State of Ohio, the Governor is not allowed [Mr. Clarke.] I believe that this veto power the exercise of the veto power. In the State of contains a bad principle. A provision has been Maryland, it is made the duty of the Governor adopted in many of the old constitutions, giving to sign every bill that passes the Legislature; the Governor a veto power over legislation, which and in several of the States besides Ohio, the cannot be overcome by a majority of the legis- Governor is not allowed the exercise of this lature. I would go so far as to give him a qual-power, and is not even allowed to sign the bills. ified veto, as is proposed by the gentleman from Johnson, and no farther. When a bill has "passed both houses of the legislature, let the Governor examine it carefully, and if he finds anything there which is unconstitutional or absurd, let him point out those particulars, and return it, with his objections, to the house in which it originated; and if, upon due consideration and sober second thought, they should consider that it was right and proper, let them pass it. It is well enough, I think, that the Governor should have a revising power over the errors which may be committed by hasty and inconsiderate legislation. For instance, about two years ago a bill was passed through both branches of the legislature of our State, with scarcely any objection, chartering some bridge company in the northern part of the State. It came before the Governor, who, after examining it, pronounced it unconstitutional, and returned it with his objections to the General Assembly,

It is singular that while so much is said in the free States about the aristocracy of the Southern slave-holding States, out of fifteen slaveholding States there are but four that have this veto power, where it requires a vote of two thirds of the Legislature to pass a bill, after it has been vetoed. All the others provide either that there shall be no veto power given to the Governor, or else they provide for a qualified veto. I hope that this Convention will, after mature deliberation, come to the conclusion that the best plan is that which is proposed by the amendment of the gentleman from Johnson.

The question was then taken upon the amendment offered by Mr. Clarke, of Johnson, and it was rejected; ayes 9, noes not counted.

Mr. GOWER. I move to strike out "two thirds," and insert "seven twelfths," so that it will require seven twelfths of the members to pass a law over the Governor's veto. I have examined this subject with some degree of atten

Tuesday]

YOUNG-HALL-CLARKE, of H.-PARVIN.

tion, and I have come to the conclusion that the veto power oftentimes is a salutary check upon hasty and inconsiderate legislation. But I think that seven twelfths of the members are sufficient to pass a law over the Governor's veto.

The question was then taken upon the amendment offered by Mr. Gower, and it was not agreed

to.

No other amendments being offered to this section

Final passage of bills.

Section eighteen was then read as follows: "No bill shall be passed unless by the assent of a majority of all the members elected to each branch of the General Assembly, and the question upon the final passage shall be taken immediately upon its last reading, and the yeas and nays entered on the journal."

No amendment being offered to this section

Publication of Receipts and Expenditures.

Section nineteen was then read as follows: "An accurate statement of the receipts and expenditures of the public money shall be attached to and published with the laws at every regular session of the General Assembly."

No amendments being offered to this section-

Impeachment.

Section twenty was then read, as follows:

[February 17th

Mr. HALL. I would suggest to the gentleman that he modify his amendment so as to provide for all other State officers not enumerated in this section.

Mr. YOUNG. I will change my motion so as to strike out all after the word "Courts," in the second line, to the word "shall," and insert, "and other officers of the State," so that the section would read

"The Governor, Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer, Judges of the Supreme and District Courts and other officers of the State, shall be liable to impeachment for any misdemeanor or malfeasance in office; but judgment in such cases shall extend only to removal from office, and disqualification to hold any office of honor, trust or profit, under this State; but the party convicted or acquitted shall nevertheless be liable to indictment, trial and punishment, according to law. All other civil officers shall be tried for misdemeanors and malfeasance in office, in such manner as the General Assembly may provide."

The question was then taken upon the amendment offered by Mr. Young, and it was agreed

to.

There being no other amendments offered to this section

Appointments to Offices of Profit.

Section twenty-two was then read, as follows: "No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he shall have been elected, be appointed to any civil office of profit under The House of Representatives shall have the this State, which shall have been created, or sole power of impeachment, and all impeach- the emoluments of which shall have been inments shall be tried by the Senate. When sit-creased during such term, except such offices as ting for that purpose, the senators shall be upon may be filled by elections by the people." oath or affirmation; and no person shall be con- No amendments being offered to this sectionvicted without the concurrence of two-thirds of the members present."

No amendment being offered to this section, twenty-one was then read, as follows:

Eligibility to General Assembly.

Section twenty-three was then read, as follows:

"No person holding any lucrative office under the United States, or this State, or any other power, shall be eligible to the General Assembly; Provided, that officers in the militia, to which there is attached no annual salary, or the office of justice of the peace, or postmasters, whose compensation does not exceed one hundred dollars per annum, or notary public, shall not be deemed lucrative."

"The Governor, Secretary of State, Auditor, Treasurer, Judges of the Supreme and District Courts, Superintendent of Public Instruction and Attorney General, shall be liable to impeachment for any misdemeanor in office; but judgment in such cases shall extend only to removal from office, and disqualification to hold any of fice of honor, trust and profit, under this State; but the party convicted or acquitted shall nevertheless be liable to indictment, trial and punishment, according to law. All other civil officers shall be tried for misdemeanors in office, in such manner as the General Assembly may provide.' Mr. YOUNG. I move to strike out the words "Superintendent of Public Instruction." I believe it is generally conceded that we shall not hereafter have the office of "Superintendent of Mr. PARVIN. I cannot see what would be Public Instruction." I make this motion in or- gained by an amendment, such as the gentleder to test, in some degree, the sense of the Con- man suggests. There is no law to prevent a vention upon this subject. If the Convention man, if he be white, from becoming a candidate retain these words here, I suppose it will be for any office. If the gentleman will go back some indication that they design retaining the farther, and say that a man holding any lucraoffice of Superintendent of Public Instruction. [tive office under the United States, or any

Mr. CLARKE, of Henry. In regard to this section, it has been suggested that it should define whether a person holding any lucrative office under the United States, or any other power, shall be eligible to a seat in the General Assembly.

Tuesday]

CLARKE, of II.-MARVIN-WILSON-CLARKE, of J.

other government, shall not be voted for, I have no objection.

Mr. CLARKE, of Henry I move to amend. the section, by adding after the words "eligi- | ble," the words "hold a seat in;" so that it will read

"No person holding any lucrative office under the United States, or this State, or any other power, shall be eligible to hold a seat in the General Assembly," &c.

In answer to the gentleman, I would say, that other States have declared that all votes cast for persons under similar restrictions as those contained in this section were void. My object is to prevent persons who hold lucrative offices from holding a seat in the general assembly.

Mr. MARVIN. I would like to understand, whether, as the section now reads, it does not amount to the same thing. It says: "That no person holding any lucrative office under the United States, or this State, or any other power, shall be eligible to the general assembly." I wish to ask if we are not to understand by this that no person as here described can take a seat in the general assembly.

Mr. CLARKE, of Henry. I would suggest to the gentleman that the clause as it now stands is ambiguous. The same question would be raised here, as was raised in Wisconsin in the case of the election of James R. Doolittle to the United States Senate. He was elected a judge under such a provision as this. He resigned his office, and now he is elected United States Senator. The question was raised in the Assembly that he could not be elected United States Senator during the term for which he was elected judge. A similar question arose in the United States Senate in the case of Senator Trum: ull from Illinois. The only object I have in proposing this amendment is to remove any ambiguity of construction that may be given to this clause.

The question was then taken upon the amendment offered by Mr. Clarke, of Henry, and it was not agreed to.

No other amendments being offered to section twenty-three

Section twenty-four was then read as follows:

"No person who may hereafter be a collector or holder of public moneys, shall have a seat in either House of the General Assembly, or be eligible to any office of trust or profit under this State, until he shall have accounted for and paid into the treasury all sums for which he may be liable."

No amendments being offered to section twentyfour

Appropriations.

Section twenty-five was then read as fol

lows:

"No money shall be drawn from the treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law."

[February 17th

No amendments being offered to section twentyfive

Per Diem and Mileage.

Section twenty-six was then read as follows:

"Each member of the General Assembly shall receive a compensation to be fixed by law, for his services, to be paid out of the treasury of the State. Such compensation shall not exceed three dollars per day for the period of sixty days from the commencement of the session, and shall not exceed the sum of two dollars per day for the remainder of the session; when convened in extra session by the Governor, they shall receive such sums per diem as shall be fixed for the first sixty days of the ordinary session. They shall also receive three dollars for every twenty miles they travel, in going to aud returning from their place of meeting, on the nearest traveled route."

Mr. WILSON. I offer the following substi tute for section twenty-six :

"Each member of the General Assembly shall receive a compensation to be fixed by law for his services, to be paid out of the treasury of the State. Such compensation shall be three dollars per day for each member, for the first session of the General Assembly under this Constitution; and three dollars for every twenty miles they travel, in going to and returning from their place of meeting, on the nearest traveled route."

Mr. CLARKE, of Johnson. I have prepared a substitute for this section, which I would like to offer, and which I would ask the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Wilson,] to accept as a substitute for his. It covers the same ground that the one he has offered does, but goes a little farther.

The substitute was then read, as follows:

"Each member of the first General Assembly under this constitution shall receive the sum of three dollars per diem, after which the compensation of the members of the General Assembly shall be fixed by law,-and the sum of three dollars for every twenty miles they travel in going to and returning from their place of meeting, on the nearest mail route,-after which they shall receive such compensation as may be fixed by law. But no General Assembly shall have the power to increase the compensation of its own members. The General Assembly shall have no power to sit more than one hundred days, in any one session; and when convened in extra session, they shall receive no greater compensation than is fixed by law for the regular sessions."

Mr. WILSON. I am not satisfied with the proposition which the gentleman from Johnson, [Mr. Clarke] has presented. In relation to mileage, it provides that the members of the General Assembly shall receive mileage by the nearest mail route. When we get our railroads in operation, we may have some very long mail

routes.