In addition, I would like to say a few more words, in general terms, about the broader responsibility for the conservation of natural resources. We do take a broad position on this matter. We have a general responsibility to the public and to the Congress to conserve, develop in some cases and preserve in others, the resources of the Nation. We can't do this, of course, unless environmental pollution is minimized. Here, of course, the Department has a major Federal responsibility shared in part by Interior, Agriculture, and other agencies.

President Johnson has dedicated his administration to making America a more beautiful place in which to live. He has stressed, for example, the importance of making the Potomac River that flows by the Nation's Capital a conservation model for metropolitan areas. The St. Croix could as well be a conservation model for the entire Midwest.

The unique, natural resources of this basin have in part been documented already. I would simply like to say that it has a unique fishery. It is relatively unpolluted. It is located at the doorstep of more than 2 million people, and the findings of the Outdoor Recreation Resources Review Commission that "outdoor opportunities are most urgently needed near metropolitan areas," I think, are significant in this regard.

There are only two dams which cross the river, and we have a great variety in plants, animals, topography, and water conditions which provide people with an opportunity for all forms of outdoor recreation. I know few rivers of such outstanding quality so near a large metropolitan area.

I have already noted that we are making a study for wild rivers, not only the St. Croix, but the Namekagon. We haven't attempted in preparation for this hearing to develop specific policy recommendations with respect to problems associated with steam-generating electrical plants like we are discussing here today. The Department recognizes, however, that these problems are increasing in magnitude and that additional public regulations may be necessary to safeguard the public interest and protect resources.

Several more general proposals possibly meriting reexamination in this context are Senate bills 649 and 1111 of the 88th Congress, which would provide for stronger water pollution control programs and improved institutional arrangements for river basin planning. The Department of the Interior supported both of these measures. Suggestions to require licensing by the Federal Power Commission of all new powerplant installations over a certain maximum size might be studied by the subcommittee with the view of protecting, when appropriate, the beauty of the landscape and other resources. And, perhaps. interest in the concept of a Department of Natural Resources in the Federal Government, as recently expressed by Senator Morse, is indicative of an increasing public awareness that governmental institutions to meet the mushrooming technology of the 1960's could stand reexamination.

In closing, I would like to bring to the attention of the subcommittee the splendid cooperation of Northern States Power Co. with our work on the wild rivers study. In this hearing where the public interest in the company's plant proposal is under study, I believe

your record would be seriously incomplete if I did not wholeheartedly acknowledge this splendid cooperation. The company assisted us fully on every request we made to them for information. Mr. Hibbard Hill, the vice president of NSP, expressed the fine attitude of the company toward wild rivers preservation in a speech on August 13, 1964, which I would like to quote as follows:

I want you to know that NSP, which owns most of both banks of the St. Croix for nearly 70 miles above Taylors Falls, has for many years refused to lease or sell these lands in a manner to spoil their wild attractiveness, and several years [ago] *** NSP began its own wild river study with a view to preserving these lands for recreational uses * * *. We are as anxious as any of you to preserve the wonderful recreational value of this St. Croix Valley.

Senator NELSON. Let me interrupt and say that I am very familiar with the area of the 70 miles you are concerned with and have fished and known it as a young fellow for many, many years. I wish to join in endorsing the observation you made about Northern States Power Co.'s maintenance in its natural state in this area.

Go ahead.

Mr. JORDAHL. In the way of conclusion, I would like to say when we have decided how best to protect them, when this is fully matured and, hopefully, is in operation, I am confident that Northern States Power Co. will stand ready to help achieve the goals in this regard that are determined to be in the public interest.

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate having the opportunity to present the views of the Department of the Interior.

Senator NELSON. Did I understand you to request your remarks at the St. Paul meeting respecting this meeting be included in the record at the conclusion of your statement?

Mr. JORDAHL. Yes, sir.

Senator NELSON. Senator Metcalf, do you have any questions?
Senator METCALF. No questions.

Senator NELSON. Thank you.

(There follows the full text of Mr. Jordahl's statement and his remarks at the St. Paul meeting:)

STATEMENT OF HAROLD C. JORDAHL, JR., REGIONAL COORDINATOR, UPPER MISSISSIPPI-WESTERN GREAT LAKES AREA, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. Chairman, I am Harold C. Jordahl, Jr., regional coordinator, Upper Mississippi-Western Great Lakes Area, U.S. Department of the Interior. The Department of the Interior welcomes this opportunity to appear before the Special Subcommittee on Water and Air Pollution on the interstate aspects of the proposed construction of a steam-generated powerplant on the St. Croix River. In a letter of November 24 to Secretary Udall, the subcommittee requested that the Department of the Interior, as an agency of the Federal Government, explain its role in cooperation with the States of Minnesota and Wisconsin and other Federal agencies-in evaluating the effect of the proposed powerplant on water quality. We are happy to respond to this request and to be as helpful as possible, contributing what we can in this hearing and in other ways, to analysis of the public interest in this matter.

The Department of the Interior is the one department of the Federal Government which is concerned almost solely with conservation of natural resources. Thus we are concerned with the development of such resources.

But we are not only concerned with resource development. The Department is also concerned with preservation of select areas by establishment of parks, recreation areas, seashores, and wild rivers and by encouragement of the States and local governments to establish similar types of areas. The 88th Congress, in addition to enactment of many other notable conservation

measures, authorized upon our recommendation the Ozark National Scenic Riverways. And, jointly with the Department of Agriculture, we are conducting a nationwide wild river study to identify rivers or portions of rivers that by some appropriate means-Federal in some cases, State or local in others might be protected for public recreational use. A portion of the St. Croix, above the proposed powerplant site, is involved in this national wild river study.

To meet the natural resource problems of our time, and as we envision them in the future, the new emphasis of conservation, we believe, must be a concern with the environment as a whole-with prevention of environmental pollution (air, water, and land) and also with provision of quality in surroundings appropriate to the needs of different people, in different places, and in different times of the day and year. And, in emphasizing this concern with the quality of living, as has President Johnson on a number of occasions, Secretary Udall and all of us in Interior are following the President's own lead in emphasizing the need to preserve natural beauty throughout the land, not only for ourselves, but for the generations that will come after us.

The Department has two legislative authorities which are germane to this problem. First, the 88th Congress passed Public Law 88-29, which provides: "That the Congress finds and declares it to be desirable that all American people of present and future generations be assured adequate outdoor recreation resources, and that it is desirable for all levels of government and private interests to take prompt and coordinated action to the extent practicable *** to conserve, develop, and utilize such resources for the benefit and enjoyment of the American people."

This law is known as the Organic Act of the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation. The act further provides that the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to "provide technical assistance and advice to and cooperate with States, political subdivisions, and private interests, including nonprofit organizations with respect to outdoor recreation"; to "encourage interstate and regional cooperation in the planning, acquisition, and development of outdoor recreation resources"; and to "cooperate with and provide technical assistance to Federal departments and agencies and obtain from them information, data, reports, advice, and assistance, that are needed and can reasonably be furnished in carrying out the purpose of this act, and promote coordination of Federal plans and activities generally relating to outdoor recreation."

Under the aegis of this authority, the Secretary of the Interior, through the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation, can advise organizations concerned with the powerplant proposal of Northern States Power Co., as to its views on the proposal in relation to outdoor recreation resources. Federal or State agencies having regulatory authority must decide themselves, of course, the weight to be given to such counsel. But our responsibility to offer advice is clear.

Second, in the Fish and Wildlife Coordination Act (the act of March 10, 1934, 48 Stat. 401, as amended by the act of August 14, 1946, 60 Stat. 1080; the act of June 19, 1948, 62 Stat. 497; and the act of August 12, 1958, 72 Stat. 563; 16 U.S.C. 661 et seq.), the Congress has stated that:

"For the purpose of recognizing the vital contribution of our wildlife resources to the Nation, the increasing public interest and significance thereof due to expansion of our national economy *** and to provide that wildlife conservation shall receive equal consideration and be coordinated with other features of water resource development, maintenance, and coordination of wildlife conservation *** the Secretary of the Interior is authorized (1) to provide assistance to, and cooperate with, Federal, State, and public or private agencies and organizations in the development, protection, rearing, and stocking of all species of wildlife resources thereof, and their habitat, in controlling losses of the same from disease or other causes

*

The act further provides that: "*** whenever the waters of any stream or other body of water are proposed or authorized to be impounded, diverted, the channel deepened, or the stream or other body of water otherwise controlled or modified for any purpose whatever, including navigation and drainage, by any department or agency of the United States, or by any public or private agency under Federal permit or license, such department or agency first shall consult with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Department of the Interior, and with the head of the agency exercising administration over the wildlife resources of the particular State wherein the * * * control facility is to be constructed, with a view to the conservation of wildlife resources by preventing loss of and damage to such resources."

The act further provides that reports and recommendations of the Secretary of the Interior shall be made an integral part of any report of the Federal Government and that: "The reporting officers in project reports of the Federal agencies shall give full consideration to the report and recommendations of the Secretary of the Interior * * *”

The act provides an additional authority as follows:

"The Secretary of the Interior, through the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Mines, is authorized to make *** investigations * * * to determine the effects of *** polluting substances on wildlife, and to make reports to the Congress concerning such investigations and of recommendations for alleviating dangerous and undesirable effects of such pollutions. These investigations shall include (1) the determination of standards of water quality for the maintenance of wildlife; (2) the study of methods of abating and preventing pollution. * * *; and (3) the collation and distribution of data on the progress and results of such investigations for the use of Federal, State, municipal, and private agencies, individuals, organizations, or enterprises."

Thus, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Mines, both within the Department of the Interior, act in an advisory capacity to the Congress and to the Departments of Agriculture and Health, Education, and Welfare and others.

The Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife, at the request of numerous citizens and public officials, has already started investigations into the possible effects of the proposed NSP steamplant on wildlife under the authorities of the Fish and Wildlife Coordination Act.

Since the proposed project is not a hydroelectric plant, the Northern States Power Co. is not required by law to obtain a permit or license from the Federal Power Commission. If it were so required, that Commission would be obligated under the Fish and Wildlife Coordination Act, as now in force, to consult the Fish and Wildlife Service about this matter.

However, should the Northern States Power Co. request a permit from the Corps of Engineers, Department of the Army, for dock facilities, channel dredging or similar works affecting the river, the Fish and Wildlife Service would be consulted, under the act, prior to the decision to issue a permit. Again, the obligation upon the Army is to consult. It is not obligated to follow the advice given.

The Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife will assist local and State organizations in their fact-gathering studies on fish and wildlife habitat and resources in the St. Croix River. If these studies conclude that the proposed project operation will be harmful to the natural resources of the river, then every appropriate effort will be made within the Bureau's existing authorities to encourage Northern States Power Co. to relocate the plant or to modify the facility and operation in the interest of protecting aquatic resources.

There are also a number of other ways in which agencies of the Department can be helpful and contribute to a careful analysis of the problem. But we do have technical knowledge of electrical energy needs, costs, and sources for the upper Midwest region. In fact, we made a major contribution to the fuel and power study-Lake Superior region, 1963, which contains useful data for a discussion of the NSP proposal. We have, of course, no power marketing responsibilities in the area of the St. Croix.

As noted, the Bureau of Sport Fisheries and Wildlife can contribute; and its sister agency, the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, can also provide technical knowledge. In addition to studies on pollution, the Bureau of Mines can advise on fuels and their costs as sources of energy for power generation. And the pioneering agency of the Federal Government in developing knowledge of water resources, the Geological Survey, can mark a significant technical contribution to understanding of water quality conditions and probable effects.

Bringing together this knowledge for consideration by regulatory agencies. in this case of the State of Minnesota, can be the Department's contribution to any public decision relating to this matter. Thus, Secretary Udall promptly responded on behalf of President Johnson to a request made to the President by Governor Reynolds of Wisconsin on October 21, 1964, for Federal assistance to a task force of representatives from Wisconsin and Minnesota agencies, "to insure that the public interest is fully protected" and "to properly assess the overall impact of the present proposal for this electric plant, and to thoroughly investigate all possible alternatives." Secretary Udall agreed that thorough investigation of the total overall effect of the proposed plant is essential, and that alternatives to the plant's construction at the proposed location should be ex

plored. He further indicated that the Department of the Interior, in adidtion to its own consideration, would endeavor to arrange, as requested, for participation in the study by the U.S. Public Health Service, the Army Corps of Engineers, the Federal Power Commission, the Department of Agriculture, and such other Federal departments and agencies as might be helpful. All of these departments and agencies, plus the U.S. Coast Guard which is concerned with boating safety, have expressed their willingness to assist the task force of representatives from Wisconsin and Minnesota agencies.

I would now like to turn to several aspects of the proposed steamplant which are of concern to the Department. (To date Interior's investigations in response to Governor Reynold's request are still underway. Thus, we cannot report any findings or conclusions at this time.)

1. The company indicated that an average of three 15-barge tows per week for 32 weeks will be required to transport coal to the first unit of the plant. In what manner and to what degree will this barge traffic affect recreation boating, swiming, fishing, and other forms of outdoor recreation? Will unloading of barges and subsequent cleaning have any deleterious effect on water quality in the St. Croix River?

2. The company indicates that the plant will use about 500 cubic feet of water per second from the St. Croix River for cooling purposes. It will be returned to the river 10° to 17° warmer. We are interested in determining the effects of this withdrawal on aquatic resources and the impact on these resources when it enters the river 10° to 17° warmer. In what other ways will this affect recreation: Boating, ice skating, swimming, fishing, etc.?

3. In what ways will the natural beauty of the area be affected? A pile of coal 50 to 60 feet high, one-half mile long, a powerplant 200 to 300 feet long and 200 feet high, and a smokestack 600 to 800 feet in the air will change the scene of the St. Croix River Valley at this point. And this is the first of a planned two-unit system.

4. What effects will plant residues have on the environment in general and, specifically, upon fish, wildlife, and outdoor recreation resources? Do stack gases pose a potential problem? Where and in what manner will ash be disposed of? In remarks which I made in St. Paul on October 13, 1964, and which might be useful to the subcommittee as a part of this hearing record, I suggested that alternatives should be explored before a reasoned judgment is made. I did this because areas of true unspoiled natural beauty, like the St. Croix, are relatively scarce. Sites for steam powerplants adjacent to water sources in areas, where development of various kinds have changed the natural character of the area, are usually more abundant. Suggested for consideration and comparison were the following: First, the present site location; second, a site either above or below the present one or at another location in the metropolitan area; third, development of other energy sources: fourth, construction of a plant outside the metropolitan area and transmission of power via EHV lines, or an intertie with any surplus power sources.

There may be other alternatives. To make the decision, benefits and costs to society and to Northern States Power Co. should be analyzed and documented. Such an analysis should weigh intangibles as well as tangible evidence. Presumably, the company, given its position in the area in the sale of power, will adjust rates in the face of increased costs in such a way that there will continue to be an equitable return to investors. If costs were to be increased by selecting one alternative over another, the purchaser of electrical energy in the Twin Cities area would share in the increased cost and would, as a consequence, have the present outdoor recreational values of the St. Croix River Valley preserved for him. In fact, the economies of scale of the proposed plant may be such that even though an alternative site itself may cost somewhat more, the overall cost might still be somewhat less than under the present proposal. The facts concerning this matter should, of course, become known to the public.

The Federal Government, acting through the Departments of the Interior, the Army, Agriculture, and Health, Education, and Welfare and cooperating with the seven States, is now engaged in a comprehensive study of the water and related land resources of the Upper Mississippi River, including the St. Croix and other tributaries. Unfortunately, this study is in its initial stage and will not be completed until 1969. The Federal guidelines for this and similar studies, adopted by President Kennedy on May 15, 1962, bear the title, "Policies, Standards, and Procedures in the Formulation, Evaluation, and Review of Plans for Use and Development of Water and Related Land Resources," and were pub

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