Senator COOPER. Has there been any model constructed or specific plans to show

Mr. BARNETT. We have not seen any model.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Senator RANDOLPH. Senator Fong.

Senator FONG. Would we, coming up Constitution Avenue, notice the entrance of this north tunnel, the north end of the tunnel? Mr. BARNETT. That is right, north of Constitution Avenue. Senator FONG. It will be north of Constitution Avenue, but, driving up Constitution Avenue, would we notice the autos? Mr. BARNETT. Would you notice what?

Senator FONG. Notice the entrance, the north entrance, or would it be so far away that we won't even know that it exists?

Mr. BARNETT. I should think as you pass between Second and Third Streets you will notice nothing to the right, which is the Capitol Grounds, nothing to the south, but to the north you will notice this depressed freeway.

Senator FONG. A depressed freeway?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Senator FONG. Where does the depressed freeway start?

Mr. BARNETT. At the north, as I understand it, at the north boundary of Constitution Avenue.

Senator FONG. Is it possible to go north a little further? Mr. BARNETT. General Duke is wagging his head no. I may have the wrong information. That is the latest plan that I have. Senator RANDOLPH. I think that certain of these questions should be reserved for the District officials to answer. I don't mean to stop the questioning. I want that to proceed. But I think we have repeatedly heard you say, Mr. Whitton and Mr. Barnett, that certain questions as to the detailed planning and so forth

Mr. BARNETT. Mr. Whitton and I hope you know that we are not trying to dodge the issue, Senator. It is just when we don't know we had better say we don't know.

Senator FONG. I will reserve the question. Mr. Whitton, as I understand it, the Interstate Highway will be completed by 1970, is that correct.

Mr. WHITTON. 1972, Senator.

Senator FONG. 1972?

Mr. WHITTON. The latter part.

Senator FONG. And you expect as the coordinator of the public roads program that all of these highways are to be completed? Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Senator FONG. And if they are not completed, then the moneys that have been reserved and the roadways, the mileages that have been reserved for the various States will be eliminated; is that correct?

Mr. WHITTON. At that time if the interstate highways are not completed by October and the money paid as we understand it by October 1972, then the law becomes nonexistent, and we revert back to the status before the Congress passed the law in 1956, and all roads then will be completed on a 50-50 basis as we understand it now. The Congress can change that.

Senator FONG. Now as far as the District of Columbia is concerned, if this doesn't go through by 1972

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Mr. WHITTON. And completed.

Senator FONG. The District of Columbia will be losing $70 million, is that correct.

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Senator FONG. Now let me ask you this question. With your knowledge of the system and how it is operated, could you foresee difficulties in an extension of the law whereby one State would be allowed to complete its highways at a date subsequent to 1972.

Mr. WHITTON. My personal opinion is that I don't think we ought to talk about extending it. If we talk about extending the law then some States are going to let up on their push to get the job done, and I just won't talk about it.

Senator FONG. So as an expert and as a coordinator of this program, you would advise that everything be closed as of that date, is that correct?

Mr. WHITTON. Let's just don't talk about it, Senator. Let's say that as far as the law is concerned we have got to complete it by October 1972, and as we approach that date, we will reassess what is the wise thing to do.

Senator FONG. I bring up this question because we have a problem in Hawaii continuing the Interstate System subsequent to its beginning. Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Senator FONG. One of my colleagues says that because we came in late there is a possibility of extending it. I maintain that it is going to be very, very difficult to maintain

Mr. WHITTON. I hope you keep that position.

Senator FONG. Thank you.

That is all I have.

Senator RANDOLPH. We would ask you, Mr. Whitton and Mr. Barnett, to continue to be present at the hearing this morning for possible supplementary information.

Mrs. Rowe, will you come forward please and give us the help which we know you will be able to supply. Mrs. Rowe, will you give your correct name and the position you hold, please.

STATEMENT OF MRS. JAMES H. ROWE, JR., CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION

Mrs. Rowe. Yes; I am Mrs. James H. Rowe and I am the Chairman of the National Capital Planning Commission. I am very pleased to be invited. I have no formal statement, Mr. Chairman. The legislation that the committee is reviewing today has not been formally before the Planning Commission nor has the precise alinement of the center leg which is reflected in the legislation that you are considering today.

The Planning Commission has of course over the years had on its maps and proposals the general concept of the center leg of the inner loop, but we have never taken any action on its precise alinement.

There has been a great deal of concern in the Planning Commission because of its effect on the Capitol Grounds and on the city as to just how the center leg should be designed and where exactly it should go. In approving funds which the Planning Commission does regularly in its review of the Capital budget of the District, the Planning Commission has stated over several occasions, and reiterated again

this year, its concern for just how this proposed route should be built. I want to quote a little language to you:

In approving the funds for the center leg the Commission did so on the provision that before bids for construction are advertised, the Commission shall approve a model of the project indicating the architectural treatment of the center leg. An objective of the design of the project shall be to enhance the beauty and the livability of the city.

Now, one of the Planning Commission's responsibilities is to review the capital expenditures proposed of the District. We have in addition in the basic statute of the Planning Commission, which the Commission acts as the city's planning agency, fiscal planning agency and also the agency for fiscal planning of the Federal establishment in the region.

One of the charges that our basic statute gives us is the preparation of the comprehensive plan for the city, including the thoroughfare plan. If I might read to the committee some of the language of that in the law:

The major thoroughfare plan may include established and proposed routes. Following the preparation and adoption by the Commission of the major thoroughfare plan or parts thereof, it shall be submitted to the Board of Commissioners of the District of Columbia, and if approved by the said board shall be deemed to be the approved plan. Revisions in the major thoroughfare plan or parts thereof shall similarly require the adoption by the Commission and the approval by the Board of Commissioners of the District of Columbia.

I read this only to emphasize that under the statute establishing the Planning Commission, there is a large measure of responsibility residing in the Commission for review and approval of all the thoroughfare planning in the city, and obviously this is a very important part of it. Now as far as this particular tunnel is concerned, perhaps this is the best location, but the Commission hasn't had an opportunity to review it. Our concern is not limited just to where the tunnel might go under the Mall itself, but what is going to happen on either end.

I know Senator Cooper mentioned, and Senator Fong too, the north end of the proposed tunnel, and what it would do to the approaches to the Capitol from an esthetic point of view. The Planning Commission of course must be concerned not just with the esthetics but with how the people in the city are going to live. This is going to be a big relocation problem. We can't determine it when we have no precise information on just where and how extensive the proposed route is going to be. As I say, we have agreed in the past to the general concept, but we have asked for a model preliminary to final approval.

I would be glad to answer any questions.

Senator RANDOLPH. Thank you, Mrs. Rowe. As I understand it the Planning Commission has given its approval to the general plan for the center leg?

Mrs. RowE. That is correct.

Senator RANDOLPH. What was the vote in that approval?

Mrs. Rowe. Well, it has been on the books for some time as a general concept. In 1959 the Planning Commission prepared the mass transportation survey. I don't know what the vote was at that time.

Senator RANDOLPH. You will provide that for the committee?

Mrs. RowE. Yes; when it first appeared on the Planning Commission's agenda as a part of the District budget, all of the members of the Commission with the exception of myself supported the inner loop. It is not the first time I quess that a chairman has been outvoted, but since then the inclusion in the District budget has been unanimous with the proviso that we first have a model before any construction is advertised, any bids for construction.

Senator RANDOLPH. I think at this point the chairman would like to say that it was his understanding that congressional authorization of the tunnel is permissive. It does not force the construction or alinement if the other responsible agencies do not approve the specific alinement. I would like to have the record indicate this. I have no further questions.

Senator Metcalf?

Senator METCALF. Mrs. Rowe, how long have you been on the Commission?

Mrs. RowE. A little over 3 years.

Senator METCALF. Someone on my staff or someone dug out that the first proposal before the National Capital Planning Commission was submitted in 1950.

Mrs. RowE. That was long before my day.

Senator METCALF. Yes; and I am informed that it was rejected at that time, both by the Commission and by the Highway Department and the District of Columbia Commissioners because of excessive cost.

It wasn't until we had the Interstate Highway so that we could have 90 percent, or roughly 90 percent, paid by the Federal Government that this proposal came back again to the Commission with recommendation from the Commissioners. Perhaps I should address this to Mr. Duke too.

Mrs. Rowe. You are a better historian than I, Senator Metcalf. Senator METCALF. This is not my material. This is just material that was dug up by the people on the staff. I have been running back and forth to the Senate floor as the rest of the Senators have in the last few days, answering quorum calls and roll calls and haven't had time to dig this material out. I am concerned as you have expressed yourself, concerned as to the exits and entries that Mr. Whitton and Mr. Barnett talked about, the cloverleafs or the ramps or whatever they are going to be at the entrances and exits of this tunnel over by the Esso Building or wherever it is going to be and by the Rayburn Building.

I suppose that was the concern of the Commission.

Mrs. Rowe. That is the reason we asked for the model, because it is very difficult to determine just what a road is going to look like if you see it only in two dimensions, as just a line on a map. We find that having a model is of great service. Recently we have been reviewing the county center site. We have a model there not only of the building itself but of the roads and the approaches. It is of invaluable assistance to have something in three dimensions. Perhaps a well-trained engineer can project the third dimension from two, but for most of us it is a real necessity to have a model to work on.

Senator METCALF. So this approval by the Commission which is required by statute-is that what your testimony was?

Mrs. RowE. Yes, sir.

Senator METCALF. Has been tentative and conditioned upon the submission of a working model?

Mrs. RowE. That is right. The Commission didn't want to delay any planning and approve the planning funds, but felt that before any construction was started or bids for construction were advertised, that there should be a model that could be reviewed, and the District Highway Department was agreeable to preparing a model, but it has not yet been prepared. We haven't seen it.

Senator METCALF. Apparently you are in the same position as the Bureau of Public Roads in not having seen the final plans.

Mrs. RowE. That is correct.

Senator RANDOLPH. Thank you, Senator Metcalf.
Senator Cooper?

Senator COOPER. The statute will speak for itself, but is it your statement that the National Capital Planning Commission must give its approval of the center leg before its construction could be undertaken?

Mrs. Rowe. I believe so under the statute under which we operate. Senator COOPER. The approval that you gave concerns only general concept of the center leg?

Mrs. RowE. That is right.

Senator COOPER. Has the Commission given its approval, its final approval, for the construction of the center leg?

Mrs. RowE. No; we haven't because we haven't had the model which we asked for.

Senator COOPER. Has the Commission asked the District Highway Department to furnish plans or models of the design of the center leg? Mrs. RowE. Yes, in our budgetary review of the District's proposed capital expenditures budget for the last 3 years we have asked for the model before any construction was started, and they are not at the stage yet as I understand it to advertise for construction bids, and I gather we will get the model. But this is preliminary to any final approval.

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not in the past years there have been discussions between the District authorities and the Capital Planning Commission and any committees of the Congress respecting authority for this tunnel.

Mrs. Rowe. I don't know, Senator. I know that there has been informal conversation. We have formally had the tunnel before the Commission and a precise alinement. It has been part of the general concept that there should of course be a tunnel and not a surface or a street or an open cut across the Mall.

Senator RANDOLPH. Thank you, Senator Metcalf and Senator Cooper.

I want the record to show that I was very specific in speaking of your approval of a general plan. Thank you very much, Mrs. Rowe. Mrs. Rowe. You are very welcome.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Walton, please. Mr. Walton, will you give your name, title, and the Commission you represent, sir?