Senator MUSKIE. Now, this study must be completed before you can determine the nature and extent of the Federal responsibility in this problem, is that right?

Mr. STEIN. I think, sir, that the nature and extent of the Federal responsibility now is clear. I think

Senator MUSKIE. In the interstate portion of the water?

Mr. STEIN. In the interstate portion of the waters. I think we have to determine in the study, make a determination of the facts in order to determine, what can be done equitably to handle the problem. The problem on the Nashua-Merrimack system always has presented a rather complicated situation for this reason: While there was interestate pollution or indications that there might be interestate pollution, pollution in the intrastate portions of the river, that is the lower portion in Massachusetts, was so significant that it seemed a very, very difficult task just to get at the interstate portions without cleaning up the lower end, too.

Now that the Governor has asked us to take the whole stretch of the river, I think the Federal responsibility and jurisdiction is clear, and this represents the kind of a problem which can be met.

Senator MUSKIE. Let me ask you this: Can the Governor confer jurisdiction on you with respect to the interstate portion? Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir; under the law.

Senator MUSKIE. He can do that?

Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir. Under the law we are required to enter into a case involving interstate rivers on request of a Governor of either State.

Senator MUSKIE. I understood that you had jurisdiction over interstate waters if there is pollution which endangers the health or welfare of any persons regardless of whether or not a Governor invites you to come in.

Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir.

In another State we can do that on our own initiative but there is another provision of the act which requires us to enter a case on request of a Governor.

Senator MUSKIE. That is with respect to waters within his State? Mr. STEIN. No; interstate, too, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. Interstate waters, too?

Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir. We have no option when we receive a request like that from a Governor, and we have had requests of this nature. If a Governor complains of pollution in another State we have to go in under the enforcement procedures.

By the way, this is either the Governor or the State water pollution control agency. There was 1 case, among the 20 which I have given you, where we did have such a request from a State water pollution control agency and after the conference we came to the conclusion that the State complained of was not contributing to the interstate pollution. That closed the conference.

But under the law we had to hold the conference.

Senator MUSKIE. So with respect to interstate waters you can move in either because there is a pollution which endangers the health or welfare of any persons or upon request of the Governor of the downstream State.

Mr. STEIN. Yes. Yes, sir. To be very technical about it, the Governor of the upstream State can also ask us, the Governor of either State.

Senator MUSKIE. Could bring you in?

Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. The request of Governor Peabody in February of this year was the first request from the Governor of either State to move in on the Merrimack problem, is that correct?

Mr. STEIN. That is correct, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. Did the Department have any prior experience with the Merrimack River problem under section 8?

Dr. ANDERSON. No.

Senator MUSKIE. You had no dealings with Massachusetts authorities or New Hampshire authorities with respect to the Merrimack River prior to February 12 of this year?

Dr. ANDERSON. Not with regard to an enforcement action.

Senator MUSKIE. Have you with respect to any other action by the Department?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, with regard to informing ourselves of the condition of the Merrimack River, and the program of the two States to abate pollution within their own authorities and responsibilities. Our review of this indicated that they were making progress.

One of the significant developments, in my opinion was the appropriation by the Massachusetts State Legislature of the moneys to fund the studies we have talked about earlier here on the Merrimack River system.

Senator MUSKIE. Did your discussion with the State agencies have any bearing upon your responsibilities under section 8?

Dr. ANDERSON. Not with regard to any enforcement action which might be requested by the Governor or under conditions in which we felt the health and welfare of the citizens of Massachusetts was being endangered by pollution in the State of New Hampshire.

Senator MUSKIE. The other day Mr. Stein testified that there are about 220 major water areas, some of them interstate and others navigable within States, which the Department is keeping under surveillance.

Is the Merrimack River one of those 220?

Mr. STEIN. Yes, it is, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. So it is a river in which the Department feels and felt following 1962, following the enactment of the provisions of 1961 might involve a Federal responsibility, a Federal enforcement responsibility?

Dr. ANDERSON. We have all of the interstate rivers of the country under surveillance with regard to pollution and with regard to corrective measures that are underway.

Senator MUSKIE. Because of your responsibilities under section 8? Dr. ANDERSON. Under the total responsibilities imposed on us in the act. This information is pertinent, too, for example, with regard to the development, of comprehensive pollution control plans for a river basin.

Senator MUSKIE. Is that a responsibility you had before the amendments of 1961?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. And this responsibility with respect to the Merrimack you feel had not changed prior to the Governor's letter of February 12 of this year?

Dr. ANDERSON. It had changed with regard to the intrastate aspects as the consequence of the 1961 act; yes.

Senator MUSKIE. Did you have-you spoke of discussions with the Massachusetts agency or representatives of the Massachusetts agency prior to February 12 of this year.

Did you have correspondence with the representatives of Massachusetts on this problem prior to February 12 of 1963?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. And since the enactment of the amendment of 1961?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, we did.

Senator MUSKIE. Do you have that correspondence with you?
Dr. ANDERSON. I do, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. Could we have it?

Dr. ANDERSON. I see no reason for you not to have it. I would like to say that with regard to the correspondence that I personally am involved in. I don't know if that is what you wanted. Do you want our full correspondence files on the Merrimack River?

Senator MUSKIE. Well, I am particularly interested in the corre spondence you had with reference to a program for cleaning up the

river.

Dr. ANDERSON. Well, there may be much more correspondence pertinent to that.

Senator MUSKIE. I am particularly interested in correspondence that has a bearing upon your responsibility under section 8, whether or not you treated it as being under that responsibility.

Dr. ANDERSON. I am not sure, Murray, that we would have all of the correspondence that would relate to that.

Mr. STEIN. I think we have most of it here.

Senator MUSKIE. Now, the act became effective in July of 1961? Mr. STEIN. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. And Mr. Quigley assumes responsibility under the decisions implementing that act made by the Secretary in November of 1961.

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, sir; and the formal delegation to the Surgeon General was made in February 1962.

Senator MUSKIE. In that period from July to November, did you have some correspondence with the representatives of Massachusetts on this problem?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, we did.

Senator MUSKIE. Are these copies or is this-this is all you have? Dr. ANDERSON. That is our file.

Senator MUSKIE. I want you to tell us what is in it, if you have copies of that that I could follow.

Mr. STEIN. This is the file.

Senator MUSKIE. I think I have copies here now.

With whom did you have correspondence in that period.

Dr. ANDERSON. There was correspondence during that period with Mr. Bates from the House of Representatives with regard to construction activities that do not pertain, I believe, to enforcement.

Then there was correspondence that we received from Mr. Worthen Taylor, the Director of the Division of Sanitary Engineering of the Massachusetts State Health Department, to which we replied.

Senator MUSKIE. I am looking at the letter you just handed me dated November 9, 1961, from Mr. Worthen Taylor to yourself.

Mr. Taylor identifies himself as the director of the Division of Sanitary Engineering, Department of Health of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and this is addressed to you and refers in the first sentence to some discussions that you had relative to the Merrimack River. Now, when were those discussions held?

Dr. ANDERSON. Mr. Gordon McCallum, the Chief of the Division of Water Supply and Pollution Control, and I visited in Massachusetts on or about October 27, 1961, for the purpose of looking at various sites that had been proposed by various people in the State for the location of water pollution control laboratory for the Northeast section of the country which was authorized under the 1961 act.

On that occasion we visited Lowell, Mass., where the Massachusetts State Health Department has a water pollution research laboratory. As a matter of fact, I believe it is the oldest water pollution research laboratory in the country, at least of those operated by a State.

Lowell is on the Merrimack River, and on that day as we traveled along the Merrimack River, we talked about the condition of the Merrimack River. We learned that as far as Massachusetts was concerned if there was any pollution problem originating within the State of New Hampshire it was insignificant compared with the pollution problem that was experienced on the Massachusetts intrastate portion of the river.

Senator MUSKIE. You learned that in what way?

Dr. ANDERSON. By information that Mr. Worthen Taylor and Mr. Joe Knox supplied us. Mr. Knox is head of the Interstate Water Pollution Commission for the New England States.

Senator MUSKIE. Was this simply a conclusion which they stated to you or was this detailed information upon which you could base a conclusion of your own?

Dr. ANDERSON. They made this statement to us, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. I see.

You did not go up there for the purpose of discussing water pollution conditions of the Merrimack River?

Dr. ANDERSON. No, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. This was an incidental discussion which developed after, in the course of your mission up there to study laboratory facilities?

Dr. ANDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. Now, the letter in the second paragraph says, "At that time the following plan of action by the Commonwealth was outlined," and there are four steps, or five steps in the plan of action which was outlined to you.

Did you request such an outline or was this offered to you gratuitously?

Dr. ANDERSON. I don't recall how it came up, but we were interested in what steps were being taken in relationship to the Merrimack River as they discussed it a matter of information that they thought we would be interested in and we certainly were interested in receiving

20-495-63- -22

it. We were much impressed by the plans that the Massachusetts folks had developed, which was being supported at that time by the Governor for a State action program on the Merrimack River.

Senator MUSKIE. How many days did you spend in Massachusetts at that time? Was it the 1 day of October 27, 1961, to which the letter refers?

Dr. ANDERSON. I don't recall. It was that 1 day that we spent with those two people, Mr. Knox and Mr. Taylor visiting these sites. Senator MUSKIE. How many hours did you spend with them? Dr. ANDERSON. We spent all day with them.

Senator MUSKIE. In the course of that day you studied how many sites and traveled how many miles?

Dr. ANDERSON. Well, we traveled up from Boston-I wonder if I could have Mr. McCallum join me because he was on that trip with

me.

We traveled north from Boston up to the Lowell laboratory, inspected the laboratory, saw the kind of research that they were conducting and then as I recall we drove west along the course of the river to, I believe, Lawrence.

Senator MUSKIE. Would you identify yourself?

Mr. MCCALLUM. My name is Gordon McCallum.

Dr. ANDERSON. I am afraid I have my towns and geography mixed up. Lawrence is east of Lowell. As I recall it

Senator MUSKIE. Yes.

Dr. ANDERSON. And the experimental station is at Lawrence. That was our first visit because one of the proposals was that the regional water pollution laboratory for the Northeast be located adjacent to the State laboratory there at Lawrence. There also had been expressions from individuals interested in Lowell, in having this regional water pollution laboratory located there so we drove over to Lowell to visit the town and to see what the situation was there.

And during the course of this ride you drive right along the Merrimack River. And then from there as I recall did we go to the radiological health lab?

Mr. MCCALLUM. At Winchester we visited another laboratory of the Public Health Service, and we visited I think four or five prospective sites for a water pollution control laboratory, some right in the environs of Boston.

Senator MUSKIE. Did you spend most of the day on the road traveling and inspecting these sites and facilities?

Mr. MCCALLUM. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. At what point did you sit down, if you did, and discuss the general problem of the Merrimack which led to a discussion of the plan of action by the Commonwealth which is outlined in Mr. Taylor's letter of November 9.

Or did this discussion take place as you traveled?

Dr. ANDERSON. Well, it is pretty hard to remember, sir, at what point specific topics might have been talked about.

Senator MUSKIE. There was a running conversation?

Dr. ANDERSON. We were talking about the Massachusetts Merrimack as we drove along the Merrimack. The men were pointing out some of the kind of pollution problems that are present on the Merrimack. For example, pollution from the textile industries, which once