Board executive secretary, Bern Wright, said the city's attorney told him construction plans would be discussed Monday night by Chester's new city administration and that the attorney would make a telephone report Tuesday morning.

Wright said he would suggest that the board allow the city possibly a few more weeks before being called in for a hearing to determine future disposition of the city's grant.

The board officials said the group also will take up requests from the South Charleston Sewage Treatment Co., and Goodrich Gulf Chemicals Co.

Wright said the South Charleston firm, which treats wastes from the city of South Charleston and the Union Carbide Chemicals Co. plant in South Charleston, is in partial operation and has asked for permission to discharge industrial sludge into Kanawha River until December 31.

Wright said Goodrich was behind schedule with construction of its waste treatment plant at nearby Institute and that the company had requested an extension of its permit to discharge untreated waste into the Kanawha River until next October.

Among other reports, Wright plans to tell the board that waste being discharged by the Howes Lether Co. is causing color and dissolved oxygen problems in the upper part of the Greenbrier River. The executive secretary said a recent conference with the company failed to show that the company will make any progress toward pollution control in the near future.

Senator RANDOLPH. I find here, Mr. Mattei, while you are on the stand, you might make some comment.

In West Virginia, we have a water resources board which attempts to work with the municipalities throughout the State on water pollution and other associated problems. We are having at the present time difficulty, not only in one area of the State, but in many areas. In one city in northern West Virginia, the board may deal with sewage disposal problems. In another area, it deals with wastes that come from a leather company. Another is in the area on the Kanawha River south of Charleston, W. Va.

But I am bothered somewhat, and I am not critical in any sense of industry, when I find here that the executive secretary of the board, whose name is Wright-W-r-i-g-h-t-said that a conference with the company failed to show the company would make any progress toward pollution control in the near future.

Also, in speaking of another problem, he talked about the company asking for an extension of its permit to discharge untreated waste into the Kanawha River until next October.

What would be your comment on a permit which would allow a company to discharge into a river the untreated waste.

Mr. MATTEI. Well, it is kind of hard for me to find fault with them because all our industrial plants dump into the Mississippi River, not treated as of now.

Senator RANDOLPH. This is the general practice, is it?

Mr. MATTEL. Well, it has been, as I said earlier, for better than a hundred years. We just passed this $95 million bond issue to provide the necessary treatment.

You would have to look into the background of the situation, the type of stream it is dumping into, the type of acid or whatever it is you are dumping.

You would have to take into consideration the use of the stream. If it is a recreational stream, I think some steps should be taken immediately and some steps can be taken very, very quickly which, although they do not resolve the problem, certainly can control it a little

bit.

I am not saying I am opposed to sewage lagoons. I think they are fine for small communities. But for large areas, urban area sewage lagoons in our book are not the answer and we do not permit them. In this particular instance, there is no reason why the company could not discharge into a lagoon, if this was a good stream

Senator RANDOLPH. This is a large stream, the Kanawha River. Mr. MATTEI. And then discharge from the lagoon, say take some neutralizing action in the lagoon itself, maybe by the addition of some chemicals, and then pump directly into the stream. I see where this can be done quickly and this would be a matter of scooping out the hole in the ground.

Again I am just speaking off the cuff. I would have to go and look at it and get a report on the situation before I can say what is good or bad.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman, I will conclude by saying that I want it clearly in the record that I was not critical here in these cases. because as Mr. Mattei has indicated, each situation must be studied on its own merits.

That is more reason why I think the hearings, Mr. Chairman, which you are carrying forward in this area are very important and I hope that at a proper time, members of the subcommittee can have a session or sessions in our State capital city, Charleston, possibly also in Wheeling, W. Va., in the northern panhandle of the State. I will look forward to helping arrange such a field trip.

Mr. Chairman, in regard to this problem of dumping untreated industrial and municipal waste in our streams, I note that the State Health Department of Pennsylvania will soon launch a strong campaign to clean up the Monongahela River from the West Virginia line to Pittsburgh.

I am informed that this new effort is the result of a detailed and analytical study of the 92 miles of the river in Pennsylvania. In its report, the State health department declared that there are 27 communities, 17 industries, and 1 college located along the Monongahela that have no sewage treatment facilities. They dump raw sewage and industrial wastes into the river which also serves as the principal domestic water supply for 19 water companies. I think it is most gratifying that the State of Pennsylvania is moving forward in this field.

Mr. MATTEI. You talked about a little politics a little while ago. This is the ideal place where the Federal Government can move in and the executive secretary not get himself in any problem. He would just call Murray Stein and say, "Murray, I would like very much to have you send somebody down here and wield a stick for me."

Murray would come down and say to the plant, "I am sorry, you are not going to take any extension and you are going to take the necessary steps."

Then I am not the big bad wolf. I went along with you as hard as I could but I cannot go along any more. He is giving me hell and I am in the clear.

Senator MUSKIE. Maybe this is where Mr. Stein got this big bad wolf reputation.

Mr. MATTEI. I will be willing to tell you that industry will tell you Mr. Stein is arrogant—I have had it said about me. I am worse than

Khrushchev. When we go in and say they must have a plant, "This is worse than Russia"-we get all this. I have been down that road. Senator MUSKIE. We know.

Mr. MATTEI. If I could go on, you have one other portion of the bill which I would like very much and I discussed it with our board. They liked it very much. That is separating the grants portion of the bill from the U.S. Public Health Service and setting up a separate agency. The U.S. Public Health Service has certainly done an outstanding job in research, engineering, in developing standards, methods of pollution control, treatment facilities, and so forth, and they are to be highly commended for this. But at the same time, they are in a completely alien field when they get into telling someone how to construct something.

Our experience with them at this particular level has been not exactly what it should be. Frankly, I think the reason is that they are supporting the people who are more interested in research than they are in good methods of construction and this phase of the business.

We have found considerable lag in time in getting approval on things that should be approved more quickly. We wholeheartedly stand behind setting up a provision which would handle the grants end, something like HHFA does with the community facilities.

You can get action pretty fast out of the HHFA. If you once get local approval, it moves pretty quickly. We think this is a fine phase of the bill and certainly is an area that needs a little improvement.

Senator MUSKIE. That would require some change in the bill to reorganize it, something in that area.

Mr. MATTEI. You mean

Senator MUSKIE. The bill contemplates, as I understand it, setting up all the Government's activities in the field of water pollution in a separate agency within HEW.

Mr. MATTEI. I think the two go hand in hand.

Senator MUSKIE. You would approve the bill as it is?

Mr. MATTEL. Yes, I think the bill is very fine. It is a step in the right direction. Also, we like the increase in the amount of Federal participation. We testified here before the House committee, Mr. Blatnik, I believe. He is a very fine gentleman. We testified before Mr. Blatnik's committee some 2 years ago on this. At that time the grant was considerably less and we pointed out to him that areas like St. Louis, where at that time we were talking about a $105 million bond issue instead of $95 million-I would like to elaborate on that for just a minute, if I may.

It was through the very kind consideration of Mr. Stein and his people that we were able to get the additional time to bring in some of the controllers of the largest industries in St. Louis. We brought in the stock and bond houses and had them go over our plan of how to finance this project. Through their giving us a little more time and working closely with us, we were able to save our voters approximately $20 million. Instead of going with $105 million, we are going with $95 million, which is a direct saving of $10 million. Then we have a little bit of pay as you go in here, which will save us about another $10 million. So actually it is a saving to the people in St. Louis of $20 million which could not have been effected if the Federal Government had stuck by its original guns of "you will hold your election in 1961."

Frankly, we were not ready in 1961 to hold an election. We started our campaign, actually in early 1962 and the bond election was held in the Federal elections of 1962. But I think that that is where we stand. They have been wonderful to us. I cannot say enough nice things about that particular division.

But to get back to the additional money. We did not even tell the people that the Federal Government was going to participate in any amount. How are you going to tell them when you are asking them to vote $100 million that you are going to get $2 million? I am certainly not going to the poll to vote for $95 million so I can get $2 million.

Senator MUSKIE. This is no incentive?

Mr. MATTEI. No incentive at all in my case. The reason it was no incentive was because it was not a big enough percentage. If it was 10 percent, we would have used it. I would go to meetings and get the question, "How much is the Federal Government going to participate?" My standard answer was we think it is going to be somewhere between $2 million and $3 million, but I promise you I will work to get every dime coming to us.

We have a $11 million project and we are going to get a total of $850,000. Here again we did not use the fact that we are getting $850,000 as a campaign issue.

Senator MUSKIE. As a matter of fact, a very small community will go over the top of the limit now provided. My city is a community of less than 20,000 and the $600,000 limit now binds them. They will get the $600,000 limit as I understand it, but that will be less than 30 percent. So you are talking about a very small community now.

Mr. MATTEI. The only community it really benefits is a small community of 4,000 or 5,000 going to build a million and a half dollar plant and they are going to get $30,000 or $40,000. They benefit. But for large communities, it is no benefit.

Senator MUSKIE. You would just as soon have it.

Mr. MATTEI. Oh, I will take all I can get, do not misunderstand me. Senator MUSKIE. Are there any other areas you wanted to cover? Mr. MATTEI. No, I think that fairly well covers what I would like in the bill. We think it is a nice bill and we sincerely hope the Congress will take action on it.

Senator MUSKIE. We appreciate your testimony and I am personally grateful for you to be willing to change your plans so you could come back today.

Mr. MATTEI. This is an important job for me, I assure you.

Senator MUSKIE. Senator Bayh, did you have some questions? Senator BAYH. I wanted to ask a couple of questions to get the size of the task and your thoughts on how to cope with it.

You have just had a $95 million bond issue and you stated that you needed $100 million. Was this in addition to just coping with the present problem?

Mr. MATTEI. That $100 million is just for relief sewers in the city of St. Louis. We have areas that need sewers badly.

We cannot sewer them because they go into sewers which are so grossly overloaded already that you can just not tie more on. The camel's back has been broken. The straw was added a long time ago.

Senator BAYH. Then the billion-dollar figure-what was the billiondollar figure?

Mr. MATTEI. That was strictly storm water. This is a matter we in MSD would very much like to see the Federal Government enter into. We are working with the Corps of Engineers right now. We have had several meetings with them to see about the possibility of the Corps of Engineers coming up into some of our larger rivers, such as Gravois, Goldwater, and so on, to see if they can come up these streams and provide us with some relief. Because the relief, gentlemen, is in excess of a billion dollars just for storm water.

You must realize, as I said, that when you have 96 or 98 communities we have less now; when we originally started we had 101. Some have merged and one has disincorporated and we are down to about 94. All these communities are interested in is providing a storm sewer, let's say, for their little community. They are dumping downstream from them and they are washing those houses away. Until we came into existence, there were no controls.

Senator BAYH. I admire the comprehensive organization you put together to cope with this problem. Does this organization have a long-range plan, a goal toward eventually stopping all pollution? Mr. MATTEI. Oh, yes. By 1967, we will have four treatment plants serving 1,600,000 people which will stop all pollution in all the streams in which our area dumps.

Senator BAYH. Industrial pollution and everything else?

Mr. MATTEI. That is right, sir. We are going to take care of the industrial wastes ourselves. We may require that the particular industry do some inplant treatment. We are in the process right now of setting up an industrial waste department. I just hired an engineer to head that up and I am amazed at the salaries these people get. We are staffing the organization right now, even though we know that it will be 1967 before they can actually take effective control.

Senator BAYH. How are you going to pay for this program that is going to get the job done by 1967?

Mr. MATTEI. That was the $95 million bond issue. That is for sanitary pollution alone. That will have nothing to do with storm water whatsoever. As I said earlier, I would like to see the Federal Government come into storm water, because frankly, we just do not have a way of financing it. We got a $218,000 grant from community facilities, which we matched with $109,000, and thank you very much. for increasing it from 50 percent to two-thirds. We matched it with $109,000 and we have made a comprehensive storm water study of our entire area. We know where these creeks and sewers should be for storm water that we are talking about.

We know what size they should be. Now we have to figure out a way to raise the funds to finance it.

Senator MUSKIE. In other words, you have a plan?

Mr. MATTEI. We have a plan and we are moving along in the plan. It is a long-range plan, maybe 20 or 25 years.

Senator MUSKIE. Would you send us a copy?

Mr. MATTEI. Sure, I will be happy to. I will write it. It is nothing formulated. It is just what we have done. I will write a report and send it to you on how we propose to proceed on our storm water problem. As I say, we think it is a 20- to 25-year program.