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Senator Bayu. It is difficult for me to envision how you separate the need for the relief sewers for storm waters from the basic problem of pollution if storm waters and sanitary sewage are commingled in your system.

Mr. MATTEI. This is why I said we were most happy to see you move into the area of separating the storm and the sanitary. If we could get a third for a given watershed or a given project-and some water projects are small, only a couple of million dollars, some are big, in excess of $30 million-if we can get a portion of this mones, we can then provide for special benefit assessments which we have under our program and we can sell it. If we can say to people it is only going to cost you two-thirds, the Federal Government is going to pick up a third, we can sell it to people. We can separate those two things right now which would keep the fecal matter, as I explained. out of the ditches and out of the streets. In time of rain, we are going to bypass directly into the river. We could not possibly run them through the treatment plants.

Senator Bayh. As of now, your storm waters go into the main system.

Mr. MATTEI. That is right. When we build interceptor sewers, we only plan to accept what we call the dry river flow. In other woris we will only accept into the treatment plants what you would get in an ordinary dry day, without rain.

Senator Bayh. One more question. It just amazes me. You talker about the "licking” you had at the hands of the St. Louis newspapers

Mr. MATTEI. I just said when we tried to raise the rates, which was before I was the director.

Senator Bayh. Do you ever have any publicity in there about the scope of the pollution problem, about the serious threat it poses to the health and welfare of our country if we do not do something in the very near future?

Mr. MATTEI. Very much so. Without the media, all the media, could not have passed this $95 million bond issue. The two netto papers, the Post and the Globe, did an outstanding job. Ther be editorial after editorial. They gave us front page space which could not buy. They gave us publicity the likes of which is almos unbelievable. The Globe-Democrat assigned a reporter who did series of six articles and they were on the front page for 6 straig: days. They did an outstanding job.

This was on the $95 million bond issue.

Senator BAYH. The story about the chicken entrails would mab mighty impressive reading to me.

Mr. MATTEI. We took color movies of that. We waited until they was a chicken treating place on Gravois Creek. They have a dire" outflow to the Mississippi River. We took a boat and went out there in the morning and waited for them to make the kill. We knew abrt when they would make the kill. Then they dumped all the blood 19 the chicken entrails into the sewer and it all came out into the Visi sippi River.

Gentlemen, for a quarter of a mile downstream, that river was solid red and the guts and the packinghouse waste which came out of the sewer is unbelievable. We had some very good shots. We took some sticks and picked them out of the water and held them up like that.

Senator Bayu. Your $95 million bond issue is going to remedy this?
Mr. MATTEI. Yes.
Senator Boggs. May I ask a question?
Senator MUSKIE. Yes.

Senator Boggs. I want to thank you for staying over and being here this morning, because it has been very interesting and very helpful.

You raised my curiosity when you mentioned salary and then didn't give what the figure was. I would be curious to know what it is.

Mr. MATTEI. When you start talking less than $15,000 a year to a man with a master's degree in sanitation in public health, you are just not going to get anybody. You can find a lot of them, you can find them at $7,000 or $8,000 a year. We are paying $18,000. We found that most of them are making better than $20,000 a year.

Senator Boggs. I want to make one other comment. We have a chicken business in Delaware, in my area, too.

Senator MUSKIE. We have in Maine, too.

Senator Boggs. I just want to say that it is my impression that there is not anything about a chicken that is wasted any more. They take all those byproducts and grind them up and cook them and make something else now, as I understand. There is a little odor left, I think.

Mr. MATTEI. Well, you can do it if your salaries are cheap enough, your facilities are large enough to handle it and you have room to expand. You can make fertilizer out of it. The city of Springfield, Mo., had a very disastrous experience with a chicken place. They did not take into consideration the blood that comes from a chicken when they designed the treatment plant. They got the plant designed and then they had, as they say in the industry, they had a slug of this blood.

Well, unfortunately, the bacteria will not eat the blood and it put their plant out of operation. They just recently lost four or five lawsuits in the Missouri Supreme Court because of ordors which occurred downstream.

This put what we call bad law on the books. They should have paid them and forgotten about it, because now it sets a precedent for every other case that comes up.

Senator Boggs. In your new areas, new developments and so forth, are you building sanitary and storm sewers separate?

Mr. MATTEI. We make them separate. We make the subdivider provide both storm and sanitary sewers. We are certainly not the most popular outfit in the city because of it. They keep telling the people, he prices of houses are up; sure they are up, MSD is making us do hings we never heard of 10 years ago.

This is why there is an MSD, because they didn't do the things they should have done 10 years ago. If they had done them 10 years ago. there would have been no need for MSD.

Senator Boggs. I have another question. Could you give an opinion about the practicability of these delayed flow barrels—have you tried them in St. Louis?

Mr. MATTEI. Yes; we use them in three different places that I know of. We had an area which flooded severely. By this, I mean houses where water was up on the first floor and it happened two or three times a year. A man came in from California and wanted to develop a 40-acre shopping center. It is in an incorporated area and I refused to permit him to build because he would make 40 acres of impervious ground which previously would absorb the water. I was roundls castigated for this because I was keeping a man out who was goir. to put some assessed valuation on the books. But we finally came up with an answer which has worked, and this has been in existence now some 3 years.

He constructed this parking lot like a waffle, if you can imagine what a waffle looks like. At the bottom of each waffle, he has a grate. an inlet which seeps sewers. Each of these waffles is approximately an acre in size.

These sewers were all collected in one big line. At the end of this we built a manhole which has an opening, I don't know the exact size. But we calculated so that the water goes out that opening no more than it would have if the ground had developed it.

A parking lot is used as a reservoir. As the water builds up into the parking lot, it builds up pressure and forces the water throug this hole at a greater velocity so you now get more water throuri at a given period. It has worked beautifully. We have used it to other times that I know of in areas where we have floods.

Of course, if some day we can provide the necessary proper-size: sewers in this area, they will be able to abandon this and go to s normal parking lot.

But until we do, it has worked. Because it retains the water. Tx water runs for a longer period of time. When it stops raining, i: may take 45 minutes to drain the lot, but it has solved our problem...

Senator Boggs. Thank you.
Senator MUSKIE. Are there any other questions?
(No response.)

Senator Muskie. Thank you very much, Mr. Mattei. This has beer very useful testimony.

Nr. Pattison, would you bring your group forward ?

The following is the list of witnesses as I have them. If this list has changed in any way, let me know. We have E. Scott Pattison, manager-secretary of the Soap & Detergent Association, who is going to handle the presentation; Mr. J. B. Moser, vice president, Lever Bros. Co., and vice chairman of the steering committee of the Technical & Materials Division of the Soap & Detergent Association, and Dr. J. G. Pleasants, Procter & Gamble.

These are the three who will have prepared statements.
Then we have five other gentlemen whose names are on the list.

STATEMENTS OF E. SCOTT PATTISON, MANAGER-SECRETARY, THE

SOAP & DETERGENT ASSOCIATION; J. P. MOSER, VICE PRESIDENT, LEVER BROS. CO. AND VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE OF THE TECHNICAL & MATERIALS DIVISION OF THE SOAP & DETERGENT ASSOCIATION; J. G. PLEASANTS, PROCTER & GAMBLE; CHARLES G. BUELTMAN, TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, THE SOAP & DETERGENT ASSOCIATION; F. J. COUGHLIN, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF THE PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT DIVISION, PROCTER & GAMBLE; WARREN JENSEN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, CONTINENTAL OIL CO.; AND HENRY V. MOSS, DIRECTOR, OF PRODUCT QUALITY OF THE INORGANIC CHEMICAL DIVISION, MONSANTO CHEMICAL CO., ST. LOUIS, MO. Mr. PATTISON. We have four other gentlemen here today, Mr. Charles G. Bueltman, who is technical director of the association. We have just heard about the salaries paid to engineers, so I see another problem arising in our organization.

We have Mr. Frank J. Coughlin, who is here. We have Mr. Warren Jensen, over here on the end, and Dr. Henry V. Moss, on my right.

The record indicates that the papers which these gentlemen prepared were submitted last Friday and the reason I asked to have them up here is because these questions will deal with specific areas of experience and if there are questions, I would like to have you direct the questions to them.

Senator MUSKIE. The missing witness is Dr. R. B. Wearn, director of research, chemical products, Colgate-Palmolive Co.

Mr. PATTISON. His statement was filed.

Senator MUSKIE. All these statements will be printed in their entirety in the record at this point.

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