Mr. KINCHELOE. Is there any bill pending here to give them the authority?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes: one of the amendments offered here, No. 7110.

Mr. WATTS. But has the department requested that that amendment be made giving them the authority. We don't want to mix the weighing up with the docking.

Mr. KINCHELOE. You are interested in the docking more particularly than in the weighing?

Mr. WATTS. Yes. This docking system of 70 on stags and 40 on sows is being worked on by the department. It is unfair to the producer. You take a five or six hundred pound stag, with a great big rough place on his shoulders, with big patches and a big rough head, and he gets docked 70 pounds. The department is working on a percentage basis for dockage; instead of so many pounds to make it on a percentage basis.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if a stag weighs only 60 pounds the shipper is 10 pounds in the red?

Mr. WATTS. Yes; he owes them 10 pounds. That is unfair and they realize that.

The CHAIRMAN. The rule used to be 80 and it is now reduced to 70? Mr. WATTS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. When I was a shipper it was 80 pounds.

Mr. WATTS. It is now 70.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that these amendments have been gone over by the Department, and they have been gone over by the cooperative selling agencies, and while they are not just exactly what we would like, some of them, we are going to leave that to the committee. Now, with regard to the law, Mr. Chairman, we farmers read the law and it looks mighty good, but when we go to the Secretary with a complaint on something like docking, or something of that kind, and he tells us that he hasn't got the authority, and the National Livestock Exchange employs men like Mr. Boyd, probably one of the best lawyers west of Washington, to assist them in convincing them that they haven't got the authority, we haven't got much show. So we are leaving it to the Secretary of Agriculture and to this committee to put in effect anything that they think is just and right for the selling agencies, putting the cooperatives and the old line selling agencies on the same basis. I am much obliged

to you.

The CHAIRMAN. If the department decides that it has the authority to and will do the docking and weighing you will be satisfied?

Mr. WATTS. If they will do it.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, if they will.

Mr. WATTS. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. So far they haven't done it?

Mr. WATTS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You wouldn't insist upon doing the weighing, but you would be satisfied with the supervision?

Mr. WATTS. Yes.

Mr. KINCHELOE. But if the department has the authority why haven't they been doing it?

The CHAIRMAN. This gentleman says the department says it has not the authority, although I think the law is plain on it.

Mr. VOIGT. Did you make a regular and formal application to the Agricultural Department in this dockage matter?

Mr. WATTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. VOIGT. Have you a letter or decision from the department in which they disclaim authority?

Mr. WATTS. I haven't one here, no; but we had a hearing about the 30th of December, when they decided, as I understand it, in favor of my side of the case, and Mr. Boyd, attorney for the National Livestock Exchange, wanted to submit some legal points, and they reopened the hearing with the understanding that we all must be present when the hearing was had, and we came down here and spent a mighty pleasant day, but I failed to see any legal points that were put up that day. We had an interesting little visit, and then we went home.

Mr. VOIGT. I think the committee would be interested in having the correspondence between you and the department on this point. Mr. WATTS. Why wouldn't it be a good plan to have Mr. Morrill come down and tell you about it?

Mr. VOIGT. I think he ought to come down here and tell us what he has done about that thing. It looked so plain to me I could hardly believe that the department will disclaim authority over the docking.

Mr. BROWN. I can add to that right now. I was informed that after we made our request it was taken up with the Department of Justice by the Department of Agriculture and they were informed by the Department of Justice that they did not have the authority.

Mr. KINCHELOE. I thought the Agricultural Department maintained its own legal department.

Mr. E. C. BROWN. This matter is to be submitted to the Attorney General Monday; that is, it has been submitted, but the presentation of the case comes up on Monday, and I think that is one reason why the department has withheld that.

The CHAIRMAN. That matter will be dealt with then?

Mr. E. C. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Where; here in Washington?

Mr. E. C. BROWN. In Washington.

Mr. WATTS. Where did you get the notice about it being submitted on Monday?

Mr. E. C. BROWN. Through our attorney.

Mr. WATTS. That is the way of it. The farmers do not have an attorney here, and we did not know it was coming up at all.

Mr. E. C. BROWN. Oh, I guess they have some of the best attorneys. in America.

Mr. KINCHELOE. If it is to come up, your organization ought to be notified by the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. WATTS. I don't think any judge could turn the proposition down that we are entitled to the service of a public man.

Mr. KINCHELOE. It was my idea, when I voted for the bill before, that it was to be fairly and impartially administered by the Department of Agriculture, and it seems that it has not been satisfactory to either side that is, the administration of the law up to the present time.

Mr. WATTS. I think they have done fine with what they have to do with.

Mr. KINCHELOE. But I understand you are not satisfied about this proposition.

Mr. WATTS. About the docking?

Mr. KINCHELOE. Yes.

Mr. WATTS. Well, the authority was taken out of there when the bill was passed, and we want it put back in.

Mr. KINCHELOE. I am like Mr. Voigt. I thought Congress thought it was giving power to the Agriculture Department to do it. Mr. VOIGT. Let me say I think where you made your mistake was when you expected the Secretary to employ the docker at Government expense and put him in there.

Mr. WATTS. No, no. We have offered to pay just the same as the old-line commission firms, our share, the same as they do, and to go under the same rule that they have as to the docker. All that we have ever asked the livestock exchange to do was to give us a docker under the same rules and the same expense.

Mr. VOIGT. You have stated a number of times that you asked the Secretary why a public man could not be installed in the yards there to do the docking, and he said it could not be done under this act. Mr. WATTS. I think you misunderstood me.

Mr. VOIGT. What the Secretary can require the stockyards company to do is to employ competent dockers, and to require them to give service to everyone alike. He can supervise the activities of those dockers and he can see that they are competent men and that they are impartially performing their duties, which is all that you would want.

Mr. WATTS. Would you recommend that we have two sets of dockers, one employed by the livestock exchange and the other by the stockyards company?

Mr. VOIGT. I do not think that would be necessary, if the Secretary supervised the activities of the men who were doing the docking. Mr. WATTS. But he won't supervise the man who is doing the docking now.

Mr. VOIGT. That is what the law authorizes the Secretary to do, and if he hasn't done it, I think he is not performing his duty.

Mr. WATTS. I would be very much opposed to the stockyards company being compelled to hire a docker for one or two firms and the livestock exchange given authority to hire a docker for the balance of the people.

Mr. VOIGT. No; but I think the Secretary, under the law, can compel the dockers to act for everybody impartially.

Mr. WATTS. But he is hired by the livestock exchange.

Mr. VOIGT. Whether he is hired by them or by the stockyards company.

Mr. WATTS. That is all we have asked for.

Mr. VOIGT. Well, there is an Ethiopian in the woodpile somewhere.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the dockers under the supervision of the Secretary now?

Mr. E. C. BROWN. They are under supervision, yes, but

The CHAIRMAN. The docker is under the supervision of the Secretary?

Mr. E. C. BROWN. The whole stockyard activities are under the supervision of the Secretary; yes.

Mr. KINCHELOE. But it seems he doesn't supervise it much.
The CHAIRMAN. That settles it, then.

Mr. JOHNSON. No; it don't settle it, because the gentleman says it is unsatisfactory.

The CHAIRMAN. I know; but so far as the law is concerned, they are under the supervision of the department.

Mr. WATTS. Mr. Chairman, you might say that the Department of Agriculture has supervision over Mr. Boyd, who is attorney for the exchange. It hasn't any supervision over him. He is hired by the livestock exchange. The Secretary hasn't authority over a man hired by them. This docker is hired by them.

Mr. GUNN. I would like to ask Mr. Everett Brown this question: Why don't the dockers for the old line companies dock for the cooperatives? Will you please explain that.

Mr. E. C. BROWN. I could answer that now, but I figure that is quite an argument that will have to come up before the committee. We haven't time to present the 30 men that we have here on this case in the time that you have given us. Do you wish me to answer that question now, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Suit your own pleasure. He asked permission to ask the question. It is up to you whether you will answer it.

Mr. GAYWOOD. Mr. Chairman, I am here representing, under Mr. Brown, the National Livestock Exchange. I wish to address this committee on the subject of time.

The CHAIRMAN. On what?

Mr. GAYWOOD. On the subject of time that is allotted to us. The subject matter under discussion before the committee changed from the analysis of a few technical details on the question of amendments to the law to a general discussion of the entire operation of the livestock marketing facilities. This discussion has reached a point where it involves the most profound economic principles. I want you gentlemen to understand what the National Livestock Exchange is. The National Livestock Exchange is an organization which consists of men from the livestock exchanges in the different livestock marketing centers of the country. The composite membership is made up of the exchanges at each market. The exchange at each market is made up of individual livestock commission men operating in the selling of livestock for the producers of the United States of America. The organization of the livestock exchanges on the different markets was for the purpose, and has been for years, of controlling and regulating the operations of the markets under the highest standards of business principles that could possibly be devised by the human mind. Since this law was enacted there have been statements from the Department of Agriculture and, if I am not misinformed, from the Secretary himself in public that if it had not been for the livestock exchanges this law would never have been able to have been administered. It has been because of the efficient, tireless, voluntary cooperation with the Department of Agriculture and the packers and stockyards' administration that the law exists to-day as an effective regulatory measure.

Now, gentlemen, I said I was going to address myself to you on the question of time, and it was necessary on that subject to explain to you who we are.

There are gathered here representatives of the National Livestock Exchange from every important market in the country, representatives of the commission business. The origin of the commission business was coincident with the origin of the livestock industry in this country. There are men here who have served their lifetime in the business, and now, so far as legislation can affect economic laws, I know that each one of you, in your conscience, representing this great commonwealth which we all wish to see go on, none of you can shake the responsibility of giving such an interest the time to present its cause. We talk about the details of weighing, and we talk about the details of docking, but what has that to do with the main principles that have been discussed here?

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. The questions for discussion here are those embodied in these various bills.

Mr. GAYWOOD. I want to apologize for taking up so much time when I was speaking of it, but I wanted to impress upon your minds the necessity and the importance of the interests that must be heard; not in contravention; we are not in a controversial mood. We are perfectly willing to accept economic conditions, and we are not striving to conceal anything.

Mr. KINCHELOE. You are speaking of time. I haven't seen any disposition here to cut anybody off. I think you all ought to be heard.

Mr. GAYWOOD. Mr. Brown was talking about the service of the dockers. That is a haphazard beginning of the presentation of the case of the livestock commission houses.

The CHAIRMAN. No; he was addressing himself to the things embodied in this bill. You were given two days, and then an extra day. We will be pleased to give you more time, if necessary.

Mr. GAYWOOD. The conclusion of my remarks is simply this, that I hope that this committee will appreciate the fact that the side of the livestock commission men, who have been in existence since the origin of the livestock industry, can not be presented to this committee in half an hour, and I do not want it to be understood that we are concluding our hearing in half an hour.

Mr. LAWRENCE. I would like to make a statement, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment, Mr. Lawrence.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that for the benefit of the members of the committee we should have some information as to what specific amendment of the number that have been presented here is being referred to.

The CHAIRMAN. They cover only about two points.

Mr. KINCHELOE. The discussion has been so scattered that there hasn't a man spoken to any one of the bills, in my judgment. We can not intelligently consider an amendment to this law unless the witness speaks directly to that particular amendment. I do not get any sense out of it at all in this way.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not sure that you were here yesterday when it was arranged that these matters be taken up and an effort made to iron them out with the department.

Mr. KINCHELOE. Oh, yes; I was here.

The CHAIRMAN. A conference has been held with the department. Mr. KINCHELOE. It seems like they have been trying to do that ever since we had the law