a case involving millions of dollars, one man, two men, sometimes three men, to whom the Government pays $2,500, possibly $7,500, a year. They are meeting two men, three men, five men, ten men, sitting across the trial table, the best men in the country, whose earning capacity is 10 times as much as the Government pays. They do well. I want to compliment the men who are in the Department of Justice now for the splendid work they are doing; but they are not under the civil service; they work night and day. I was myself at the department yesterday (Sunday) a good portion of the day and all evening, and there were many men in the department at work. They were not under the civil service.

Now, I expect, gentlemen, no matter what you allow in these appropriations, to be as economical as it is possible to be. I think these estimates are all under what, as I see the picture of the next year, we will really require. If good fortune should smile upon us and we can save any money we won't hesitate to save it. We do not expect, in the department, to have any policy of expending the money because it has been appropriated; we will only spend it because we think we need it and know we need it and know that we are spending it judiciously.

INCREASED NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS NEEDED FOR PROSECUTION OF PROHIBITION CASES.

In the claims department I made up an estimate yesterday. I think we need 25 more men to investigate these cases and prepare them for trial and presentation.

Mr. HUSTED. That is over and above what you have estimated for, General?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Yes. After going over these matters with the department (and I give personal attention to the Government's business in this connection; I hear a lot of these cases myself and discuss them with the assistants in their respective branches), I estimated yesterday for enforcement of national prohibition we ought to have 25 more men assisting in the prosecution of these cases over the country. I have not the figures here of how many of these cases are pending the country over, but many of them are very important and the district attorneys need help. There is scarcely a district attorney's office in the country that is not clamoring for one, two, three, four, or five additional assistants.

Now, instead of appointing these men permanent assistants it would be economical for the Government to get 25 more men who could be sent as a squadron over the country to assist district attorneys in clearing up their dockets. The more promptly, the more expeditiously you dispose of these cases the better the effect is, the more impressive the punishment is, if it is pronounced immediately, and the more money you get by way of fines, because if the cases are postponed, or the accused are out on bail, or kept in jail, the families and their funds are impoverished. Now, I would say that 25 more men in that department would be very useful. The Government would save money on them.

Mr. HUSTED. I assume, then, you think this is rather a temporary condition?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I think gradually these cases will be reduced in importance. Many violators of the Volstead Act who formerly were classed as wholesalers are now transacting business as retailers.

Mr. TINKHAM. Do you ask for those 25 and the cost of their maintenance and travel in excess of the $150,000 you ask on page 94 for the enforcement of the provisions of the national prohibition act?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I do not know. In figuring this out I have only made a general synopsis here. There are now 32 men assigned in that department and I think there should be 25 more. I was just thinking of the number.

Mr. TINKHAM. Then that may be included in the request for the $150,000 on page 94?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I do not know whether it would be or not. We pay these men different sums. Sometimes you can get a very good man for $2,500. I know we started one man in for $2,500, in trying him out, who should be paid $6,000 a year, oughtn't he?

Mr. HOLLAND. I think he would be a cheap man at $6,000. We did increase him, you know, General; we found a statutory position and gave him $3,500.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I know you did; but we must increase that man again or we can not hold him. You see, it is hard to hold these men. The Department of Justice is a dignified branch of the Government, as it ought to be. These men, after they become efficient and get a good reputation, are soon picked up, and it is not at all unusual that men are offered private employment, within six months after they have been here and shown their worth, at twice or three times as much as they receive from the Government. I try to make arrangements with them to stay a year or two years, when I can; but you can not always stand in the way of a man's own interests, especially when he has a family.

Mr. EVANS. Is it not a fact, General, that very many good men desire an opportunity to demonstrate their ability, looking to a future employment just as you suggest

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Oh, very many.

Mr. EVANS (continuing). And, consequently, they consider the value of the position in the opportunity which you have to give them?

ADDITIONAL ATTORNEYS NEEDED IN PATENT INTERFERENCE CASES.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Yes. I think we are getting as much service on account of the ambition of the men as we are on account of their necessities, but to educate men and then lose them because of insufficient remuneration is expensive to the Government and demoralizing to the department. Take the patent interference cases, with 31 men now in that department; we figure we ought to have 15 more. There are claims in that department aggregating, I would say, $600,000,000 or $700,000,000.

Mr. HARRIS. $631,700,000.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. And many other claims the department will be compelled to meet, and to beat if it can, have not yet been presented; they are coming along every day.

Mr. HUSTED. The $600,000,000 and odd to which you refer represents claims that are already in suit?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. In suit and in preparation for suit. Now, we have nine men investigating war contracts. Of course, they are very complicated cases; very important cases, to see to it that no innocent concern or man who did business patriotically and reasonably with

the Government is injured by an investigation, and to see, if it is possible, that those who were doing an unconscionable business with the Government are compelled, criminally or civilly, or in both ways, to settle. We need 10 more men, and good men, because those who undertake, in a large way, to commit frauds and crimes, generally are clever and smart and they employ the best lawyers they can obtain.

ADDITIONAL ATTORNEYS NEEDED FOR COURT OF CLAIMS, ETC.

For the Court of Claims cases we need 25 men.
Mr. HUSTED. In all?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Twenty-five more men for preparing cases for trial, making investigations, getting the testimony of witnesses scattered all over the country-men that meet men at the trial table, who earn $25,000 a year and up-men capable of representing the Government in important business of this character, to whom you have to pay a reasonable amount for their services.

We need seven more men in admiralty cases, many of them cases that have come from the Shipping Board.

In interstate commerce cases we only have two men assigned. We need five more men there.

In miscellaneous cases we have 17 men and we need 8 more. Now, we need, and can use profitably to the Government-and we are not guessing at this-130 more men than we now have in those different capacities, representing those different branches.

We have many cases that involve millions of dollars. The Department of Justice is not an expensive luxury for the Government. I think I would be willing, if I had a free hand, to make a contract with the Government of the United States to transact all its law business, to take the recoveries and the fines, pay all the expenses incident to the Department of Justice, including the judiciary, the district attorneys and their assistants, United States marshals and their assistants, clerks and their assistants, and pay for all stationery and all expenses of every kind in connection with the Department of Justice, and pay annually 5 per cent and probably 10 per cent dividend to the Government on what it has invested in Federal buildings over the United States.

We may have a case for the Treasury Department that involves $2,000,000, and may collect, as we often do, very large sums. Now, there are many cases of a similar character that are held back, pending the decision of the court in that particular case, that goes to the Supreme Court and probably back again, then back to the Supreme Court again, for which we do not get credit.

I may say that these gentlemen who are appearing before you representing the department are men I have known for many years, and I have no doubt about their capability and their integrity, and have confidence that these men who are appearing before you, undertaking to present to you the requirements of the department, will impress you that we have no disposition to waste any money and we are not here for the money there is in it to us.

Mr. HUSTED. We take that for granted, General.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Thank you very much, sir. I am willing now to answer any specific question you may care to ask. I made these

estimates up knowing that we would have to show your committee. I tried them out myself. I do not see how we can get along with less money, but we can get along, at the expense of the Government's business, with whatever we get. But I am sure you will get $150 worth of service out of every $100 appropriated this year, and maybe more than that.

Mr. JOHNSON. I came into the room a little late this morning, because I am quite unwell; consequently I did not hear all of your remarks. With so much as I did hear I am thoroughly in accord. You enumerated 95 additional attorneys which you would like to have, but you finally said you would like to have 130.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. In the various branches as I have them listed here, they run 25, 15, 25, 10, 10, 25, 7, 5, and 8.

Mr. JOHNSON. I was leading up to this: Being thoroughly in accord with what you said about this civil service foolishness, I was wondering if you could get the civil service dispensed with in selecting these 130 men.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Oh, these 130 men do not come under the civil service.

Mr. JOHNSON. You can select them without going to the civil service.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. We can select them without going to the civil service, but we have some lawyers who are holding civil-service positions. The civil service covers most of our clerical force.

Mr. JOHNSON. I was leading up to this proposition, as to whether or not it would be possible for somebody to induce the President to take the last one of them out from under the civil service and permit the Attorney General and those nearest him in authority to select the desirable ones and let the others go.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Well, I do not know what you could do about that. I do not know what the country would say. I am thoroughly convinced that the civil service has been a very expensive experiment for the Government. I do not know what you can do about it. Mr. JOHNSON. I would add "injurious" to "expensive" experiment. Coming down to the business feature of the fines, is there any individual in your department whose task or obligation or assignment it is to hunt for money that is due to the United States, or do they satisfy themselves with the prosecution or defense of such matters as find their way into court?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. In my own way of considering it, we treat all these departments of the Government as clients of ours. All these claims emanate from these other departments, principally from the Treasury Department-such claims as you speak of. Now, I would not say we have anybody in the department who is making an investigation, on account of the department alone, to ascertain what indebtedness there is due this Government from other countries.

COLLECTION OF MONEYS DUE THE UNITED STATES.

Mr. JOHNSON. I did not mean from other countries; I meant from any source.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Oh, from any source?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Naturally, with the vigilance you would expect in the department, we get on to a good many things and refer them to

the proper department to have them make inquiry and then institute an investigation in connection with any agencies they may have; but I have not in the department now a branch or a person who makes a specialty of that.

Mr. JOHNSON. Do you not believe that if you had a department whose sole duty it was to hunt for indebtedness to the Government, that it would be profitable?

Mr. DAUGHERTY. Well, it might be. Of course, the department has a great many duties and responsibilities on the one hand; on the other, you would pretty nearly have to depend on the other departments of the Government. But each department connected with the Government ought to give to the other department, and anybody connected with the Department of Justice ought to give to the other department, whether it is the State Department, the Post Office Department, the Interior Department, or any other department, any information coming to us, incidentally or otherwise. I have in a great many instances taken up matters with members in the Cabinet meeting, given them a memorandum on it, to aid them and assist them in making these investigations. It might be very beneficial to the Government for the Department of Justice to organize a branch and let it cooperate with other departments in locating indebtedness to the United States wherever it might be found, and following it up. Mr. JOHNSON. I have a case in mind.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. I imagined you had a case in mind. We get this information from everybody, and we would be glad to get any we can from you.

Mr. JOHNSON. A few years ago, in looking over some old matters between the District of Columbia and the United States, I became satisfied that the District of Columbia owed the United States a large sum of money. Congress finally allowed me an accountant, and with that accountant working day and night, I went over a number of old accounts. I was not at work very long until I discovered that the District of Columbia owed to the lunatic asylum over here more than a million dollars. Further investigation developed, if I remember correctly, that that amount approximated $1,500,000. I could not find anybody whose business it was to undertake the collection of it. Finally, however—at least by my continually hammering Congress about it-we succeeded in having the District of Columbia pay the United States that amount of money.

Then I found a large number of other items, glaring out as plainly as the Washington Monument, owing to the United States, and it seemed to be nobody's business, until finally, during my chairmanship of the Committee on the District of Columbia, I succeeded in having paid to the United States approximately $2,600,000. And I think I know where there is a quarter of a million more, but I can find nobody who will take any interest in it.

Mr. DAUGHERTY. We do not stand on ceremony about those things. We give attention to a Member of Congress who has matters to look up. Even on receipt of a letter from a Member of Congress making inquiry about something like that, I would detail somebody to make an investigation and give him the information; and, if it was a part of the duty of the Government, I would find some way of rendering him the service. I think that is what the Department of Justice is for.