C. Hodgson, Esq.

2d March 1849.

197. Do I understand on leases for lives you take advantage of any improvement on the first renewal, and in the case of leases for terms of years you also take advantage of it?-I have had so few leases for lives that I can scarcely answer the question. I do not think it has occurred; but it would apply to one as well as the other.

198. In general the total advantage of any improvement is taken upon each renewal ? -Yes.

199. Unless the circumstances are very extraordinary?—Yes.

200. That must operate to a certain degree to discourage improvement on a large scale? -No, I cannot say that. There has been what I should call an equitable allowance made when a case has been properly made out. I have done every thing to encourage improvement, and those I have acted for have done so. We have always pointed out when building leases could be granted. The Archbishop of Canterbury has power under a special act to grant building leases of all the ground that was considered to be fit to be built upon. The archbishop has accordingly granted many building leases, and has a large rental from the same.

201. Have you ever applications from tenants, stating they are not inclined to lay out money in draining to a considerable extent, or erecting farm-buildings, if any allowance would be made?-No. For farm-buildings rough timber is allowed to the lessees.

202. For the repairs?—Yes.

203. You do not find they erect new farm-buildings for that?-We have gone almost as far as to allow them all that was necessary in case of a fine when they have not been sufficiently insured. In fact, I should say in all the instances that have come under my knowledge that the lessees have been kindly treated in this respect.

204. What tables of mortality do you refer to in calculating the value of the lives?Inwood's Tables.

205. Do you never refer to an actuary?—Yes; but I am able to do it almost as well myself. Inwood's book answers the purpose as nearly as possible. However, in cases of a special nature of leases for lives I am in the habit of referring to some actuary.

206. Have you found any different disposition of late shown by lessees as to renewals? -Not the slightest.

207. Are they as inclined to renew on the same terms, and as willingly, as heretofore?— I should say certainly. A very peculiar case lately occurred of a lessee declining to renew, and which I was astonished at; he had an offer on reasonable terms to renew seven years expired in a lease for twenty-one years of tithe rent-charges; he declined it, thinking it improper for tithes to be in lay hands.

208. And he declined to renew?-Yes, he did.

209. He wished the lease to run out?—Yes, and to go to the Church.

210. There are in Kent an immense number of such leases of tithe rent-charge in the hands of the archbishop, to the amount of 30,000l. a year. Suppose it was proposed to let those leases run out, funds being provided to pay the fines from any other source, would that create discontent, do you think, among the Kentish people?—I should think there would be the greatest discontent, and not the slightest reason for doing it more than on leases of land. I have not greater difficulty in renewing leases of tithe rent-charges there than of lands; they are subject to all the same settlements, mortgages, and other charges that the leases of lands are.

211. There would be good reason for it, with a view to the interest of the Church, if it could be done, and it would be a very profitable thing, looking to the present marketable rate of interest. I want to know whether you find the same attachment to leases for rentcharges that you find for leases for land?-I find lessees just as ready to renew the one as the other.

212. Are they incumbered in the same way with settlements and mortgages?—Yes.

213. You have had one case of a gentleman who thought it wicked to hold such leases? -Yes; that is, I believe, one of the opinions of the present day; and I should state that there is a society formed to redeem tithes.

214. You have not yet run out any of those tithe rent-charge leases, have you ?— Not any.

215. What is the advantage you consider to the holder of a tithe rent-charge?—The fact of having had it in his possession for a length of time is one thing—

216. We are not speaking of the estate but the rent-charge, and as distinct from the estate. What is the advantage to the holder of a rent-charge over that of any other?—I am speaking of the lease, and I call that the estate, having had that property for a long time, and, probably, the advantage of having it renewed upon the seven per cent. table. I have not had any difficulty in regard to the renewal of such leases except in the case I spoke of.

217. Among

217. Among the deductions you make for outgoings from the rent-charge, is the C. Hodgson, Esq. expense of collecting included?-Five per cent. is usually the rate allowed, because it is supposed the lessee expends that in collection and in losses.

218. Is not the desirableness of a lease of the tithe rent-charge a very different thing from the desirableness of a lease of tithes, seeing that in Kent, where they principally deal with these matters, a great number of the persons who hold the leases of tithes were the owners of lands in the parish in which the tithes arose; and if they had not had the lease, and the lease had been in other hands, they would have been subjected to have the tithe taken in kind, and the amount varying, which cannot be the case with a tithe rentcharge?—I can only state what the effect is upon renewals. I am not possessor of rentcharges. I cannot see why lessees should like one to run out more than another. I can only say I find the same facility of renewing leases of rent-charge as of land.

219. You have become also aware that they are as much involved in family settlement as landed property?-Quite so.

220. I was not doubting the disposition to renew would be the same, but I want to know whether there would be the same hardship in refusing to renew a lease for tithe rent-charge as a lease for tithes ?-You are altering my position. I have come here as a person acquainted with renewals of leases, and things of that kind.

221. Do you find the same disposition in a person who has had a lease for a long time to go on renewing, whether one description or the other?-Yes.

222. Have you any house property on rack rent passing through your hands?-No property at rack rent at all, except the archbishop's estate at Addington, namely, his demesne, and the ancient Croydon Park Estate.

223. From your experience in these matters, should you not consider the management of rack-rental property was very troublesome indeed for the Church ?—I should say rackrental property is the worst they could possibly have, with respect to trouble.

224. Has the very little you have had to do with it given a certain amount of trouble?— Yes. Since the late archbishop died, in making arrangements with a new tenant of a farm at Addington, and with respect to repairs and other things, I have experienced considerable trouble.

225. Even a large domain you think troublesome at rack rent?-Yes. I would not wish to have the management of rack-rental property of considerable extent.

226. What is the amount of domain there?-There is the park, which is about 400 acres of land, and about 600 acres out of the park.

227. In farm?—Yes.

228. Do you manage some house property of the Bishop of Chichester in Chancery Lane?—I did formerly.

229. Do you think additional powers of leasing would be useful to get that property out of the state it is in?-I have always thought that there would be some public measure which would induce the bishop to require the promoters of it to obtain powers with respect to that property. I have always looked forward to that; but I do not know myself whether it does not produce more money now to the bishop than it would do by a different course, unless there was some public improvement to take place. The next property I will speak to is house property. In the case of house property, the reserved rent only is deducted, and the fine is calculated for seven years at a year and a half, that is on the gross rent, which I consider is nearly equal to one year and three quarters of the net.

230. Is that nine per cent. ?—Yes.

231. You have covenants that buildings should be kept in repair?—Yes.

232. Is the house property you are now alluding to let on a forty years lease?—Not when we take one year and a half. I am speaking now of leases of twenty-one years. There is so little house property on leases for three lives, it is not worth while mentioning any thing about them; there are not above one or two cases.

233. Have you any forty years leases?—Yes; for the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's. Bishops have not the power to grant leases for forty years, except the Bishop of London, who has it by a special Act of Parliament as to the site of London House near Saint Paul's. 234. Are they renewed every fourteen years?—They are renewed every fourteen years. 235. What is the fine you take on fourteen years ?-We vary according to the sort of property, we divide them into classes. I should say it is from a year and a half to a year and a quarter, that is, with regard to the Bishop of London's forty years leases; the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's do not take more than a year and a quarter, that is the highest.

236. Does any of the property leased for forty years consist of good houses?-Yes, excellent. I would rather have some of those houses than any other property. There are some houses in Saint Paul's Churchyard and on Ludgate Hill, and some other such like situations, the best kind of property. With regard to the Bishop of London's property in land and rent-charges, his leases are renewed exactly in the same way as the Archbishop of Canterbury.

2d March 1849.

237. Are the out-goings in respect of rent-charges actually ascertained?—Yes, they are ascertained; we know them exactly. With respect to renewals by the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's, they, for the renewal of seven years expired in leases for twentyone years, take one year and a half of the gross value, deducting the reserved rent, which I reckon to be nearly equal to one year and three quarters of the net; and fines for the renewal of their leases for three lives are calculated exactly the same as the Archbishop of Canterbury's and the Bishop of London's by the five per cent. table.

238. That is for the rent-charges?—For both rent-charges and land.

239. Are any of the rent-charges on the Bishop of London's property, or any that you have the management of, let for three lives?—Yes.

240. In renewing those do you make a difference in the rate of interest you allow the lessees?—No.

241. Both the same?-Yes; five per cent.

242. That is something certain ?—Yes.

243. Is it not surprising that people should renew rent-charges on those terms?—No. I have not had the slightest difficulty; and I could get as solvent a man as any in London to go and receive the rent-charges and pay them regularly, if he were allowed a reasonable compensation for it.

244. You have said the form of the lease has been the same, continued from time immemorial, and that the covenants were only the ordinary covenants; what are the covenants in the leases?—The covenants are for the payment of rent and outgoings for repairs in cases where there are buildings, and so forth, and on the part of the landlord for quiet enjoyment. The lessees are not restricted by special covenants.

245. Is there any thing about not committing waste?—No; the law of the land prevents that.

246. You have no particular covenant with regard to culture at all?—No; no farming covenant at all.

247. Have you much timber upon any estate within your management?-There is only sufficient timber for repairs of the buildings in the dean and chapter and Bishop of London's estate, with a very little exception indeed; the expense of management meets the sum received for timber as nearly as possible. With regard to the Archbishop of Canterbury, he has several woods in the county of Kent, and they are extremely well managed.

248. In the case of the Archbishop of Canterbury, he keeps the underwood as well as the timber?--Yes.

249. Do you keep the underwood of all the archbishop's woods?—Yes.

250. By keeping it you mean you do not let it?—It is not let.

251. You keep it in hand?—Yes; and I am proud to say the archbishop's woods are in excellent condition.

252. In regard to surveyors, have you one surveyor, or do you employ surveyors in different parts of the country, according to the country in which the property may be?The properties all lie in the home counties. Those of the Bishop of London and the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's are in Hertfordshire, Essex, and Middlesex, and there is only one surveyor for those; but there is a separate one for houses. That is the case with all three of the properties; they have all separate house surveyors. But we do not require them in different counties. The Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's have only two estates in Kent, and the same surveyor, I think, attends to them as to their estates elsewhere.

253. Should you see any difficulty or objection in giving larger powers of making agreements for improvements with the tenants under ecclesiastical property?-If there was any land that my employers had capable of improvements, arrangements might be made with the lessees immediately under the Act of Parliament which we call the Bishop of London's Act. This has been done in some instances.

254. What are the powers of that Act?-The power of granting leases for ninety-nine years. And I should explain that when a lessee desires to convert a lease for years or lives to a lease for ninety-nine years for building purposes, a valuation is taken of what would be the proper rent for the whole term of ninety-nine years for the land in question; a valuation is also made of the lessee's interest in the existing lease; the value of that interest is deducted from the building rent, and then the landlord gets the remainder as the reserved rent in the building lease. A clause was introduced at my suggestion in the Act, that the surrender of a lease for lives or years previous to the grant of a lease for a long term should not be deemed a fine, premium, or foregift. This provision enables the lessor to enter into an agreement with his lessee, so that improvements may immediately take place, and affords to both their proportionate share of advantage to arise from the measure, so as to encourage the lessee to enter into a building speculation.

255. That is a general provision ?—Yes, a general provision.

256. Available to all ecclesiastical bodies?—Yes.

257. And to all sorts of improvements?—I think it only relates to building, and mines.

258. At

2d March 1849.

258. At present, supposing an estate to be under lease for lives, the lessor is the arch- C. Hodgson, Esq. bishop, and the lessee who holds the estate cannot sell that estate and invest the money, or exchange it for another estate? No. I think, however, there is power now, under the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Acts, for bishops and deans and chapters to make exchanges in certain cases; but I, not having any thing to do with the Ecclesiastical Commission, cannot say much about that; I refer you to their Acts. Until these Acts passed there was no power; but occasionally, when a desirable exchange has been proposed, a private Act of Parliament for effecting the same has been obtained.

259. It would be an important exchange to pay for an Act of Parliament, would it not? -Yes. I do not know, upon either of the three properties I have the management of, where I could suggest an improvement by building; every thing is so closed up. As for instance, the houses in London are in different streets, they cannot well be improved. Holders of houses on forty years leases keep them in good order, and some rebuild them. Some of the houses in Saint Paul's Churchyard, fitted up most expensively with large plate glass windows, belong to ecclesiastical bodies; it is evident the lessees must have gone to most exorbitant expense in the embellishment of those houses.

260. With regard to land let on ninety-nine years lease, do you contemplate the probability of their falling into the general system of renewing?-No, they are for the present put entirely out of sight; they have been granted now within the last thirty years, and there are sixty-nine years to run. I suppose, however, that a new lease might be granted at the end of the time for twenty-one years or forty years (as the case may be) reserving the proper rent.

261. Do you get more for a ninety-nine years lease, and by how much, than you do for a forty years lease?-If there was a large plot of ground for building upon, people would not take it upon a forty years lease. The Act enabling deans and chapters to grant leases for forty years only applies to houses in cities and great towns; it was an Act of Charles the Second, and did not contemplate building leases, in my opinion. It was probably only for keeping buildings in good repair, and making it worth the while of the lessees to do so. 262. You do not imagine that a shorter time than ninety-nine years would be sufficient to induce people to build ?-In some places where inferior houses are about to be built, a landlord would not grant leases for more than sixty or seventy years, but when there is to be a considerable outlay of money, and substantial buildings are to be put on the land, it is best to contract at once for a ninety-nine years lease, as was done in the case of the Paddington estate. I am one of the trustees of that estate, and there I know leases are granted for ninety-nine years.

263. You say in London parties will not build good houses on a shorter tenure than ninety-nine years?-My employers have no ground to build upon in London.

264. With regard to the Bishop of London's estate on the Paddington side, what do you say as to that?-That I may almost call out of London; that is quite a new feature; but there builders would not have entered into building contracts on a forty years lease, they required ninety-nine years leases.

265. Are you aware that in the north and in Liverpool they invest money to any extent on seventy-five years leases renewable every twenty-five years ?-I am not aware of that; but in the city of London, or any place where there were large warehouses to be built, or shops in conspicuous places, I have no doubt if there was land to build houses on, persons would be found willing to take land there on a less term than ninety-nine years; I think it is exceedingly probable, and that is squaring it with Liverpool; but in the outskirts of London, where there is a great deal of competition, that would not be the case. As between the Grosvenor estate at Pimlico and the Bishop of London's estate at Paddington, I believe it was half a guinea a foot that carried the day, and caused the former estate to be built on before the latter. Many houses were built on the banks of the Regent's Canal on twenty-one years leases, which houses would not last above twenty-one years in all probability.

266. Will you state the number of leases under the Canterbury estate?-There are about 199 of estates for twenty-one years, eighty-two building leases for long terms, twenty-two leases for lives, ten leases of houses at Lambeth, fifteen of leases at Canterbury, twenty-five leases of houses at Dover, ten leases of houses at other places.

267. That is 363 leases altogether?—Yes.

268. Are they pretty much in value proportionate to their numbers, do you imagine?— Not at all; it is no guide.

269. The number of leases would be no guide to the amount of income derived under the different sources?-None whatever.

270. Was that including the tithe leases?—Yes; every kind of lease estate for twenty-one years and for lives are included in it.

271. Under the general term of estate?—Yes. In the town of Deal there are 461 houses and upon twenty-one years leases, exclusive of the leases before mentioned.

272. Will you state the number of leases under the Bishop of London's estate?-There are three leases for three lives, and fourteen leases for twenty-one years, and thirty-six

C. Hodgson, Esq. leases for forty years, of houses in the city of London. There are forty leases for lives, and eight leases for twenty-one years, of estates in Fulham.

2d March 1849.

273. Does each lease comprise only one dwelling?-Sometimes more, but in general not many. In Middlesex, exclusive of Fulham, there are twenty-three leases of estates for three lives, and twenty-six leases for twenty-one years. In Essex there are nine leases o. estates for three lives, and seven leases for twenty-one years; in Hertfordshire, twenty-five leases of estates for three lives, and nine leases for twenty-one years.

274. Are there many manors belonging to these sees and to the dean and chapter?— Yes; but the courts and royalties are reserved out of the leases, and the courts are held by the respective stewards of the two sees, and of the dean and chapter. As to the number of leases of the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's, there are seventy-one leases for twentyone years, about 104 leases for forty years, and there are fifteen leases for lives, and there are thirteen leases for long terms.

275. How long have you been in the management of these different properties?—As regards the Archbishop of Canterbury's property, twenty years; the Bishop of London's twenty-six years; and the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's property forty-three years.

276. Are the fines which are now taken of greater or less number of years purchase than when you first came?-All greater, unless with very slight exceptions.

277. What would be the greatest range of difference between what has been and what is?—I should say from three quarters to half a year.

278. Does that arise from the increased annual value? No. It arises simply from the will of the lessor to make the increase in the number of years purchase.

279. The lessor refuses to let except at a higher fine?-The way to arrive at the fact is to know what the practice was. Archbishop Howley took a year and a half for a seven years renewal; Archbishop Sumner takes two years. But I should observe, Archbishop Howley calculated on the gross rent, deducting only the reserved rent; he did not deduct the redeemed land tax, and some other outgoings, but only the reserved rent.

280. Does that come to the same thing?—No, I think not; it is nearly a year and three quarters of the net rent.

281. So that the difference remains, what?-The difference remains, then, of nearly a quarter of a year's purchase. With regard to the Dean and Chapter of Saint Paul's, when I was first chapter clerk, they took only a year and a quarter gross value, deducting the reserved rent, and now they take one and a half for land, and two years for rent-charges. 282. Making allowances or not?-Just the same as to land.

283. Was much difficulty experienced in getting the increased fine from the lessees ?—I had to persuade them a little into it.

284. You showed them after all it was a very good thing, even at an increased fine? Lessees are so clever they do not want much teaching. There is one thing I would suggest as the reason why deans and chapters cannot succeed so well with their lessees as bishops do, namely, that by some inadvertence or other they have not the power of granting a concurrent lease.

285. On the other hand, is there not a greater interest in a single life, like that of a bishop, to make terms of any kind than in a corporate body?—No, it is exactly the same (I have considered that), because every individual canon is in the same state as the bishop.

286. He has only an Pro tanto it is the same. revenues.

interest in a share, he has not so large a stake as the bishop ?— Every canon has his distinct interest in a share of the corporate

287. In the case of a chapter, if a lessee offered much less than the value, the chapter would not consent to it, and a single person might; is not that so?-It is exactly the same with regard to individuals. I have had to do with both. I find it precisely the same. The course is, when leases are renewable, they inquire, "Mr. Hodgson, when do you expect "such a fine to be paid?" Just the same inquiry made with regard to individuals in that capacity as with an individual bishop.

288. Are there not a great many more leases on lives on bishops property than on property of deans and chapters ?-Yes, I believe so.

289. Is not the reason of that that deans and chapters have always refused to take any thing but the fair and exact value, when an individual might not do so in the same number of cases?—I have never seen that case arise. We never make abatement except in special

cases.

290. In cases that have come under your observation it is remarkable that there are very few leases for lives?-That is so. The Bishop of London has more estates on lives than my other employers; but I have never had the slightest difficulty with them; they have always been renewed well up, although the five per cent. table is used in fixing fines on renewal of leases for lives. When a lease is to be renewed, in consequence of a life having fallen, it is usual for another life to be speedily put in.

291. If