vote in favor of the Independence of the South Amer-
ican Governments; the same cause prevented me from
attending the House yesterday; nor was it until the
hour of adjournment that I was informed that the
members who were absent when the above vote was
taken, were yesterday permitted, by universal consent,
to have their votes entered on the Journal. Thus cir-
cumstanced, I shall feel highly honored by the House
if they will permit my name to be recorded in the affir-
mative on that question, by placing it with the yeas;
or if that cannot be done, by placing this letter on the
Journal. I have the honor to be, &c.
PHILIP REID.

MARCH 1822.

completed, and is incompatible with the neutral obligations to the country claiming jurisdiction; and that the second alternative of mutual benefit reduces it to a question of policy, in which it is only necessary to balance the good with the evil :

That we have no right to recognise nations because they have adopted forms of government congenial with our own, if our recognition would not otherwise be proper; and, to maintain this doctrine, would be to assert the odious principle of legitimacy, that nations have a right to interfere with the internal concerns of each other, which must be beneficial or injurious, accordingly as free principles or despotism happens to prevail in the world; and that, for this reason also, the present is a question of policy, not of principle: That, the period having past when our recognition of the independent Governments of South America could be of any substantial benefit to them; their independence being already firmly established, it is impolitic in us, for the sake of any advantages which either party is likely to derive from an intercourse at this time, to risk those we already possess:

That the European Powers do not, at present, appear to be disposed to molest them in the enjoyment of their independence; that our acknowledgment may have the effect to bring on them, as well as ourselves, the ill will of those Powers, and that, if this ill will developes itself in actual opposition, it will impose on them the necessity of maintaining a defensive attitude which will greatly retard their progress and improvement in the arts of peace and the principles of free government, whilst, by renewing the bonds of sympathy and interest between Spain and the European Powers, it will equally retard her progress towards liberty, so auspiciously began, and so desirable to the whole world to see continued:

Mr. GARNETT asked if it was in order to make a motion; he said he wished to make one on the subject of the vote he had given on Thursday last, on the recognition of the late South American Provinces. That it has been his misfortune, not only to differ with all his colleagues, but with the whole House on this subject; that he did not wish to recall his vote, for he was fully prepared for all the consequences that could arise from it, when he gave it; but there was one view of the subject which occasioned regret; the event of our recognition would necessarily be announced to the world, and his vote would be probably misinterpreted by the public, who might believe that he was unfriendly to the independence of the South Americas; and that he did not wish it to be believed, that there could be an American Legislator in the 19th century, who could be unfriendly to civil liberty, and the rights of man, any where. That he felt great gratification in common with the rest of his countrymen, in the success in which the struggle of the South Americans had eventuaThat, although apparently, so nugatory an act as ted; and that he refrained from voting to recog- the mere declaration of a fact, to be followed by no nise them, from considerations of policy, which he efficient measure, ought not to excite the hostility of wished to make known, by spreading them upon the European Powers, we are to consider their actual the Journal of the House, the only permanent and disposition towards us, which, on account of the exauthentic record. This was partly a national, and ample of our free institutions, we must know to be partly a personal motive; but there was a secon-unfriendly; and not count on their inability to comdary motive, which was entirely personal. He wished it to be known that he had not voted entirely without reflection, or from caprice or prejudice, by making known his reasons, which, whether well or ill founded, would show that he had bestowed some consideration on the subject. With this view he offered the following declaration, and moved to have it inserted in the Journal:

I voted against the recognition of the late American Provinces of Spain, not because I am opposed to their independence, on the contrary, I rejoice in its accomplishment, and believe that it would be even better for them to be independent with a worse form of government, than to be dependent with a better; but I voted against it because I am of opinion,

That recognition must be either the mere formal declaration of a fact which will be inoperative, and therefore useless, or it must be substantial, and propose some advantage to one or both of the partiesthat, if it be substantial, it must be intended either to impart to the party recognised the physical means, or the moral force, necessary to accomplish their revolution, or to establish relations for the mutual benefit of both the parties concerned that the idea of assistance, to consummate a revolution, concedes that it is not

mence a contest, without making allowance for their prejudices and their folly; and that, although considerations of prudence, or the prospect of a European war, may prevent direct hostility, we should not forget that we have matters of difference with France, Russia, and England, the adjustment of which should be promoted by the cultivation of their good will:

That, if Spain only, through mistaken pride, resents our act, though perhaps too feeble to carry on a war with us, she may interdict our commerce with her remaining colonies, and thus deprive us of a trade more valuable than any we can expect to substitute, for a long time, with the independent provinces:

That, if the importance of this trade to those colonies should induce them to revolt, or our recognition itself should produce in them revolutionary movements, the island of Cuba, the most valuable to us, will either fall under the dominion of the colored population, or of our jealous and ambitious commercial rival, England, or we must occupy it ourselves, at the expense of a war with that rival, who will certainly seek to prevent that occupation at the same cost:

That, to be deprived of so valuable a source of revenue as we derive from our commerce with the remaining possessions of Spain, and incur the risk of war, would greatly increase our fiscal embarrassment, ren

der inexpedient the plans of economy it is so desirable to pursue, and probably compel a recurrence to internal taxes:

That we cannot, for a great while, repair this loss by the substitution of an equally valuable commerce with the Independents, as, until their internal strifes entirely cease, and their labor can be productively employed, their trade must be limited, and we shall not be able to compete with the Europeans in their markets, but by a new commercial system, under which we shall supply them with the various products of other countries, more in demand among them than our own, and thus become at once their merchants

and their carriers :

That the elements of new revolutions still exist in Mexico, in consequence of the power and influence of the priesthood and the landed aristocracy, who gave their aid to the late revolution, under the belief that they were to have an imperial government, which secures to them their property-which probably cannot be carried into operation, and which, if attempted, it is said, will be resisted by the Republic of Colombiaand that these commotions will still farther retard the return of their productive labor to domestic industry: That the situation of Mexico is somewhat equivocal in relation to its claim to recognition, as it appears by the letter of the American Chargé d'Affaires near the Court of Madrid, that the authorized agents of that Government, after the revolt of Iturbide, and the adoption of articles of government, was known to them, still contemplated the integrity of the Spanish Empire, as it concerns this province.

EXCHANGE OF STOCKS.

H. of R.

An engrossed bill to authorize the Secretary of the Treasury to exchange certain stocks bearing an interest of five per cent. for certain stocks bearing an interest of six and seven per cent. was read a third time.

Mr. TUCKER, of South Carolina, called for the yeas and nays on the final passage of the bill; which were thereupon ordered.

Mr. F. JOHNSON said he should not again have troubled the House upon the subject but for the very singular course which had marked the progress of the bill, and but for the utter repugnance he felt for the measure-a loan bill of twenty-six millions in profound peace; that he considered the subject, as the friends of it had said, of "vital importance" in its consequence, and as a precedent. He said that the bill, as now amended, was more objectionable than at first; that it now allowed the payment of the public debt of 1814 and 1815, as well as 1812 and 1813, to be postponed and put further off. It was now a proposition to create a loan of twenty-six millions to discharge so much of the public debt which falls redeemable in 1825, '26, 27, 28, and to postpone the payment thereof until a more distant periodtaxing the community, in the mean time, and for all that time, with an interest on the debt, and which interest, as mentioned on a former day, was upwards of five million seven hundred thousand dollars annually; that the friends of the bill had urged several grounds for its passage: first, that it was recommended by the Secretary of the Treasury; secondly, that we shall not be able to discharge the debt when it falls redeemable; and, foreseeing that event, now was the golden moment, now the accepted time, to make a good bargain out of the money brokers, and, by so doing, to save to the nation the payment of 6 and 7 per cent. interest on the public debt, and to substitute in lieu thereof 5 per cent. These arguments, he said, had been answered, and that satisfactorily, in his opinion, by his honorable friends from New York, (Mr. TRACY,) from Connecticut, (Mr. TOMLINSON,) and from Pennsylvania, (Mr. SERGEANT.) It had been demonstrated, over and over again, that the stockholders will not accept the exchange you propose, unless it shall be more advantageous to them than the contract they now hold on you, and consequently more disadvantageous to the Government; so that it is to make a bargain in any event, if we bargain at all, and he said they had, moreover, shown that there was no good reason to apprehend that the credit of the Government would fall, unless uncompromitted by some such measure as the bill. But, he said, yielding to the friends of the bill, the truth of both the facts they had assumed, namely, that we shall not be able to pay the debt of 1825, 1826, 1827, and 1828, when it falls redeemable, and that money will be more in demand and the interest higher; yet, he contended, the propriety of the measure was not established he said, the argument which goes to show *See letter of J. M. Forbes, of the 17th of September, we shall not be able to pay off the public debt,

And, finally, that circumstances do not warrant precipitancy-that the great interest of both parties will be endangered without any adequate motive for the risk; and that the temporary eclat which priority of recognition may obtain for us, is not to be put in opposition to the great permanent interests of both countries, which will be best promoted by adhering, on their part, to the sage monitions inculcated in the language of one of their most distinguished patriots, Rivadavia, who declared, as late as September last, that they did not seek the recognition of other nations, because it must operate, if unsuccessful, to the humiliation of the provinces, and if successful, to mislead the people by persuading them that such recognition was all sufficient to their political existence and happiness; that the most efficacious system would be to establish order and wise institutions of government, throughout the provinces, and to show themselves worthy of the fraternity of other nations, when it would be voluntarily offered ;" and, on our part, by abstaining to propose that fraternity, until the elements of their political society, purified from the crimes and corruption engendered by former oppression, have settled down into order, and they have fully demonstrated their capacity for self-government; and until we are mutually in a condition to derive advantages from a free inter course, which will overbalance the considerations of the evil, which immediate recognition presents, without a prospect of good.

ROBERT S. GARNETT, A member from Virginia. The question being taken upon entering the said written declaration on the Journals of the House, it was negatived, ayes 49, noes 51.

1821.

presupposes and assumes for its basis, that there is

H. of R.

Exchange of Stocks.

MARCH, 1822.

it is vain delusion to talk of saving; it was a sort of political sophism in which he did not believe; the fact, he said, was not so; unless gentlemen meant to make the debt perpetual, to adopt the old maxim-a public debt a public blessing-then, to be sure, it would be some temporary relief to the finances to pay one per cent. less on the debt. How stood the facts, he asked, in this case? Say a part of the debt is proposed not to be redeemed until the end of eleven years, and you agree, in the mean time, to pay five per cent. per annum, quarterly, on the debt, is it not an agreement to pay you return it, you being allowed eleven years credit for the principal, by paying, at the rate of five per cent. per annum, quarterly out of the Treasury? On a loan of twenty millions of dollars, for twenty years, at this rate, you pay in all forty millions, and the twenty millions of interest, quarter yearly; whereas the same loan of twenty millions, continued but five years at six per cent. will only amount to twenty-six millions; the difference, therefore, in favor of six per cent. for a few years, is more favorable to the nation than paying five per cent. for a great number of years; five per cent. for eleven years makes an aggregate of interest, on any given sum, fifty-five per cent.; an interest of six per cent., for nine years, makes an aggregate of interest, on the same sum, but fifty-four per cent.; hence, he said, it was most clear that the actual saving to the nation was in the same proportion as the debt was extinguished within nine years, beyond what it would be to continue and put off the payment of any part until the end of eleven years. So much, he said, he had thought proper to say in addition to what had been heretofore said on the dollar and cent part of the argument.

to be no material increase in the revenue, nor any material change in the economy of the affairs of the nation; and he begged gentlemen to say, whether the same arguments, if admitted to be correct, did not go conclusively to show that we never should be able to pay the public debt. He said, if the increase of the revenue, and the reduction of public expenditure, will not enable the Government to pay off a good portion of the debt in two, three, four, five, and six years, he should like to know what was to happen after that period to enable them to pay the debt; and, said he, I pray gentlemen, who rely so much more on their predic-fifty-five per cent. on the money loaned, before tions for our inability to pay the debt, than on exertions to pay it, to open to us the events of futurity, and give us a view, if it be but a faint one, of the prosperity which is after that time to advance our revenue and resources so as to enable us to pay this debt with an accumulation of fiftyfive per cent. on it, that we may have faith, and, having faith, we may live in hopes, that, without any exertion but the mere process of creating new loans to pay off old ones, we shall some day relieve the country of this enormous debt. And if they would be kind enough, he said, to develope the process by which men or nations could get out of debt by borrowing, it would be a most acceptable invention in these times. The argument, he said, which was advanced to show that the interest on money would increase in a year or two, and hence the conclusion that we ought to borrow while interest is low and before it rises, was founded upon the assertion that the capital in the country, which was now unemployed, would in a short time be employed in a profitable commerce; that commerce was increasing, and would increase, and would employ the capital of the country. So be it, said he; and what does it prove?

If commerce increases and flourishes, does it not inevitably advance, in the proportion of its increase, the revenue of the nation? Most assuredly it does. And, if the revenue thus increases, it gives the means directly and immediately to pay off the debt. For, in the same extent, you admit the argument contended for, he said, that the capital of the country would be employed in profitable commerce, and therefore could not be obtained on loan but at a higher interest than now, also proved with it a like proportion in the increase of the revenue, and an increase of the revenue gave the means of paying the debt; and the argument thus urged, he said, in favor of the bill, was most clearly against it. So, he said, to him, it was perfectly clear, that, take the argument either or both ways in which it had been contended for, that it was against the policy and propriety of the measure. But, said he, we are told that two millions of dollars are to be saved to the nation by this bill, and several hundred thousand every year. Astonishing result, he said, to be produced by borrowing money. It was vain delusion to talk of saving millions while you plunged the nation deeper and deeper in debt; while you increased and extended the amount of interest, and gave it a sort of perpetuation on posterity that seems without end,

But, he said, there were other points of view in which this subject might be profitably received and considered. Loans or a national debt, under a certain administration, was once considered a national blessing, but it had been long since admitted, on all hands, that a national debt was a nation's curse; we then deprecated a national debt, and we still continue to view it as a national evil; but it would seem, he said, that times change, and we change with the times. That very system which, under a former Administration, was opposed, abused, and cried down, as tending directly to the oppression of the people, and the destruction of the Government, we now propose to adopt and speak of with as much indifference and unconcern as if it was of but momentary consequence; that very system of loans and public debt was one of the levers that overthrew that administration and established in its stead an administration of economy and retrenchment-an administration which consulted the interest of the people and studied the perpetuation of American liberty-an administration which arrested the career to consolidation and profusion, and restored correct principles and economy-an administration that, with less capital and wealth in the nation; with less population; with fewer resources than we now possess; yes, with the remains of means of the preceding administration, extinguished about sixty-five millions

MARCH, 1822.

Exchange of Stocks.

H. OF R.

actions, by bestowing some attention to the disbursements of public money confided to his control, might, if disposed, be able, from time to time, to give to Congress much useful information, to aid their labors in economizing the public money. Not one word, however, upon this subject, have we heard suggested; and hence, he said, the diffi

of the public debt. And how was it done? It was effected, he said, by the then Executive of the nation turning its attention to the deranged finances of the country, correcting the faults, errors, and profusions, that had crept into the various Departments of the Government, and by husbanding the resources of the nation, and which had been esteemed, in the preceding administration, so in-culties which presented themselves to the House, adequate to the annual ordinary expenses of the upon that subject, were so great. He said, he Government, that direct and internal taxes had appealed to the gentlemen of the House to say, been levied with a liberal hand, on the people, to whether it was scarcely possible for the members, supply the alleged deficits in the revenue, derived however industrious and persevering, if they perfrom imports and tonnage, &c. All these obnox-form the duties of the House and those on comious and oppressive laws were repealed, and, not-mittees, to become well acquainted, even in the withstanding the clamorous predictions of ruin course of several sessions, with the expenditures in and devastation which was to overtake the nation, the different departments and the labor and service by reason of the new organization of things which and nature of service required, so as to be able to sugwere everywhere uttered by the enemies of that gest and point to reform in every one, and to asceradministration, the sage of Monticello, to the utter tain what, if any, has been disbursed without the astonishment and confusion of his enemies, not authority of law-he said so numerous and complionly kept the Government in operation and in cated are its concerns, that it is almost wholly peace, but with the remains of means extinguished impracticable, and hence said he, we have to conabout sixty-five millions of public debt. fine our efforts, to the more prominent establishAnd what, said he, is the state of things now ? ments of the country, the Army and the Navy, and A profound peace and an uninterrupted commerce, attempts at the Civil department. The Army, enjoyed to the fullest extent. Yet the public debt said he, we reduced last session, and that departhas increased, for the last two years, and the pay- ment had introduced and was approaching, a ment of it is now proposed to be pushed further degree of economy not observed, it was believed, forward, and no effort made to extinguish it. And, in any other. And is there, he said, no necessity said he, can gentlemen point to one single Exe- for attention to this subject? He said that somecutive effort or recommendation of means for the thing like five millions a year, was appropriated extinguishment of the public debt, or the intima- by Congress in the nature of its expenditure, more tion of a project for retrenchment. But, on the or less contingent-some of it altogether contingent, contrary, he said, what an unpleasant situation the residue depending on the discretion of various was every member of the House placed in! Yes, persons in its administration and disbursement. sir, he said, what is the estimation in which every He did not say that abuses had taken place, and member is held, who dares to declare himself in if there was not, he said, it was right upon prinfavor of retrenchment and economy? It is a fact ciple to investigate and to understand, but that, no longer to be disguised from the nation; he is from the manner of reporting the accounts of the considered as incurring Executive displeasure; he various expenditures to the House, but little or no is esteemed in opposition to the Executive. By information is afforded; they are chiefly reported what authority, he said, such calculations and es- in sundries-so much for sundries, &c., and he timates were made, he was wholly uninformed. could not any better judge after such accounts But one thing, said he, sir, I will tell you, that, if came in than before as to the propriety of the expenthese implications and imputations, although now, diture, but he supposed it was owing to the manner like Will-o-the-wisp, they come in at one ear and in which the auditors kept their accounts; he go out at the other, and we cannot tell from whence supposed they just sent extracts from their ledgers. they come or where they go, yet, if they are suf- He said he observed some items, however, that he fered to gain ground and to spread, in the absence could find no authority for, but he would not now of all Executive acts to the contrary, they will trouble the House with the mention of them upon place the Executive of this nation in an awkward this occasion, but he just observed that in an apposition-in opposition to the will and the inter-propriation of $30,000 for an Indian treaty, he est of the people-and what would then be the saw ten thousand dollars set down as so much consequence he would not say he would leave given away, for which there was no other evidence that to others. The people look at the progress of than the word or certificate of the givers of the the public debt and the loan system with great money; $10,000 paid in part for the cession obconcern; they call for its extinguishment; they tained, the residue absorbed in expenses and wages. call for retrenchment; they call for economy in Look at the contingent expenses upon almost any the Administration, and it is required not more for subject, and see if there is not something of the the purpose of extinguishing the debt, than for the same want of attention to the public interest; this preservation of the purity of republican principles. he mentioned as a small circumstance that had Yes, said he, they look for acts and efficient mea- just crossed his mind, it was small compared to sures to rid the nation of this enormous debt, grow- other appropriations he knew of no authority for ing, and likely to grow, if a different course of giving away the public money, and none for adthings is not adopted. He said, the Executive of mitting credits and disbursements without evithe nation, presiding over its concerns and trans-dence; it might, he said, be right, but it was cer