that inland cities of the States included, took advantage of them. To illustrate, in operating the boats on the Lower Mississippi, under the United States Railroad Administration, many thousands of bags of sugar, of course, with other commodities, were carried up the Mississippi. I have not the entire data with me now, but I recall one shipment of 79,400 bags, of which 80 per cent went to 14 inland cities, and only 20 per cent, or 16,000 bags to the city of St. Louis. So I say this, if the inland waterways are left independent that is, free from interference by the Interstate Commerce Commission or by the Shipping Board, or by any other controlling governmental agency, so far as the determination of the rates to be charged is concerned it will be beneficial to and encourage the operation of boat and barge lines upon the waterways, but if there is given power to the Interstate Commerce Commission to fix and determine the rates to be charged on port-to-port shipments, or to be charged where a joint rail-and-river rate applies, it will be prejudicial. If, however, there is given the power to the Interstate Commerce Commission to compel joint rail-and-river rates, based upon the rates then applying, and if the commission is given the power to compel physical connection at docks and proportion the cost of the construction thereof, the result will be that there will be called to the support of river-way development not only the cities located upon the waterways but inland cities adjacent to the rivers, or removed, if you please, to a very considerable distance, say of 100, 150, or 250 miles, from the river, or, perhaps, in some instances greater distances. By such a method the development and use of the waterways, in conjunction with railways, would be a matter of common interest to all. not only to cities located upon the rivers but cities located inland, and I believe, with the other splendid provisions contained in this act, the Esch bill, and if the Government discharges its obligation and duty as I conceive it to be, and improves the inland water channels so that boats and barges can be placed upon them and operated economically and safely, then the practical and beneficial use of such waterways will be reestablished and inestimable benefit be conferred.

Our transportation facilities are wholly inadequate now, and should be added to or increased by the use of our great inland waterways, which have been so long and so sadly neglected. I hope, therefore, that no provisions will be included in the bill which will place in any controlling body the power to fix and determine the rates to be charged by carriers upon the inland waterways. I will not consume now further time of the committee.

I thank you.

STATEMENT OF MR. R. A. DEAN, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE SHIPPING BOARD.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dean has come in since I spoke, and he wants to make a few remorks.

Mr. DEAN. I am Mr. R. A. Dean, and I am assistant general counsel of the Shipping Board.

The position of the Shipping Board has been covered by the statement made by Mr. Edmonds and Judge Alexander.

The Shipping Board at this time asks to be left alone in dealing with the regulatory features of the bill, because they feel that if

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you interfere and take away their present power-the power, by the way, which has been exercised to a very limited extent that you may interfere with their plans or their policy in regard to our merchant marine, in which we are all so much interested. For this reason they oppose the provisions of this bill which provide that the regulation of traffic by water shall be turned over to the Interstate Commerce Commission. I simply wish to put them on record to that effect.

They have considered the matter in connection with the investigation which Mr. Edmonds and Judge Alexander and the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries made a month ago, with the idea of getting together data which would show the committee what should be done in the nature of legislation to help us work out our problem. And this very matter came to the attention of the Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee at that time, in connection with other problems. The committee came to the conclusion that it was a great mistake to have this regulatory function taken away from the Shipping Board at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course you have no jurisdiction over inland water transporation now?

Mr. DEAN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any views on that feature?

Mr. DEAN. No. I do not think the board considered it at all. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. The committee is very much obliged to all the witnesses who have appeared to-day for the informative character of the testimony they have presented. We will not have a meeting of the committee to-morrow, as it is a legal holiday-the parade of the First Division. Recess until 10 o'clock Thursday morning.

(Whereupon, at 5.25 o'clock p. m., an adjournment was taken until Thursday, September 18, 1919, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Thursday, September 18, 1919.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. John J. Esch (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. There is present this morning Mr. Tomlinson, of the Division of Inland Waterways of the United States Railroad Administration, and we will be glad to hear him at this time.

STATEMENT OF MR. G. A. TOMLINSON, DIRECTOR DIVISION OF INLAND WATERWAYS, UNITED STATES RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

The CHAIRMAN. Please state your name, address, and your official capacity, for the benefit of the committee.

Mr. TOMLINSON. G. A. Tomlinson, director of Inland Waterways, United States Railroad Administration, Washington, D. C. The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Mr. Tomlinson.

Mr. TOMLINSON. Mr. Chairman, the Inland Waterways Division of the United States Railroad Administration is the ultimate out

growth of an inquiry instituted by the then Director General, Mr. McAdoo, in February, 1918, who appointed a committee of four known as the Inland Waterways Committee, to study the inland waterways of the United States with a view to coordinating the waterways and the activities of the waterways with the railroads. That committee completed its investigation in April, 1918, and the Director General then created the New York Barge Canal Section of the United States Railroad Administration under the direction of a Federal manager and authorized the construction of certain floating equipment.

In August, or in perhaps late July, the Director General authorized the creation of the Mississippi and Warrior River Section of the United States Railroad Administration, and certain appropriations were provided for and a certain construction program proceeded with, as I shall recite a little later.

In September, the Division of Inland Waterways was created, the Mississippi-Warrior River Section and the New York Barge Canal Section being in charge of that division.

On the New York Canal Section the estimated expenditures and appropriation up to date amount to $4,588,998, providing for the construction of 51 steel and 21 concrete barges; 21 self-propelled steel barges, and the purchase of 5 tugs and 3 wooden barges. The total expenditure to date has been $3,324,418, and the balance to be expended is $1,264,580.

Forty-eight of these steel barges have been completed and are now in operation. The remaining three steel barges will be completed next month. Eighteen concrete barges have been delivered, of the 21 provided for, and are now in operation, and the remaining 3 will be delivered before the end of the current month. The 20 self-propelled steel barges which were only recently authorized will begin to be delivered next month; 6 of them will be finished next month.

On the Mississippi-Warrior Section, the total estimated requirements to carry out the program authorized by the Director General amount to $9,681,087. This provided for the purchase and construction of equipment for the Mississippi and Warrior Rivers, and of this sum $4,223,542 had been expended to September 1. The balance to be expended is $5,457,548. This provided for the construction of 40 steel barges of 2,000 tons deadweight capacity for use on the Mississippi River, and of these barges 2 have been delivered, 1 will be delivered Saturday, and the others will be delivered at the rate of 5 or 6 a month.

In addition to the Mississippi River facilities, this provided for the construction of 6 towboats to tow these 40 barges, and the delivery of these towboats will begin in December-2 in December, 2 in January, and 2 in February or March.

For the Warrior River, four self-propelled steel barges are being constructed and delivery will begin in January, one each month. Three steel towboats are being constructed and they will be delivered in November. The program calls for the construction of 20 wooden barges for the Warrior River. Fifteen of these have been delivered and the other five are about completed but are being held up on account of some difficulties which the Shipping

Board has had with the barge builder, and we are withholding final payment until that matter is adjusted.

The Mississippi River section has been in operation since October. They purchased 2 steamers and 9 barges and have leased from the Engineering Department some 20 barges and from private individuals 3 towboats; so that the operation on the Mississippi River to-day embraces 5 towboats and 29 barges. This is only a temporary arrangement, the idea being to institute service on the Mississippi as early as possible in order that we may coordinate with the Railroad Administration in the promulgation of joint rates and in opening up the whole traffic problem, which is, of course, a very large one.

That is about all, Mr. Chairman, so far as the construction program is concerned. If there is anything else, I should be very glad to try to answer any questions.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the result of the financial operation of the Mississippi-Black Warrior traffic?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Would you like it for all of them?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if you have the information.

Mr. TOMLINSON. I can give it of the three functions, if you like. I will start with the New York Barge Canal.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. TOMLINSON. The previous operation or the experience in 1918 on the New York Barge Canal I have not here, but that was in the director general's report to the Congress and there is nothing further to be said about the season of 1918. The New York Barge Canal operation, of course is a seasonal operation, the season beginning some time in May and ending in December, when weather conditions prevent further operation. The season began this year on May 15 and, of course, you understand, the overhead continued right from the first of the year, so that the operation only amounts to 10 weeks in our statement here; that is, May, June, and July. The total loss was $72,511.27, largely represented in the overhead for the portion of the year during which there was no canal service. In the month of July, the New York Barge Canal began to make money. They made something like $5,000 in July, and the August earnings will be considerably in excess of that.

The Government is operating simply a fleet of boats, and it has nothing to do with the canal operation. That, of course, belongs to the State, and I think I may go further and say that there is not any reason, so far as I can see, why the Government fleet on the New York Barge Canal, henceforth, should not be a profitable operation. It is operating under serious handicaps because it has no motive power except the five tugs it owns, which are totally inadequate for the fleet, and we are obliged to rent whatever tugs are available, and, of course, on the New York Barge Canal, having been out of service for a number of years, the tugs are practically obsolete.

The CHAIRMAN. Will they permit self-propelled barges on the New York Barge Canal?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; there are a number of the old-style, wooden, self-propelled barges being operated by private individuals on the canal this year. Last year, the Government leased some of those oldfashioned barges.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not know but what there was some objection to self-propelled barges by reason of the wash on the banks.

Mr. TOMLINSON. They limit the speed, Mr. Chairman, at those places where there is apt to be erosion from the canal banks, and in making this statement for the New York Barge Canal, I want to direct your attention to the fact that instead of operating on the basis of 12 feet of water, which the State of New York promised the director general before he agreed to put any facilities on the canal, we are operating on 8 feet of water, as the canal banks are so unreliable in spots that we consider it unsafe to navigate barges drawing any more water; in fact, we have stranded several times, even at 8 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. That has reduced your cargo?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir; normally we should be drawing 11 feet to have a safe operation through there even with a 12-foot channel. The CHAIRMAN. If the State of New York had furnished you a 12-foot channel, would that have lessened the amount of your deficit for the current year?

Mr. TOMLINSON. Very naturally, yes, sir; and I am only mentioning that in connection with the fact that when we do enjoy a 12-foot channel, our earnings will be very materially increased.

The CHAIRMAN. What assurance have you got that the State of New York will comply with its agreement made with the director general?

Mr. TOMLINSON. They are working actively on it; but in the section around Rochester, N. Y., where the main difficulty lies, they have had a great deal of trouble with the channel banks. There is a great deal of quicksand there.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, with reference to the lower Mississippi and the Black Warrior Rivers, give us your financial statement on those. Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir; the Mississippi River, as I say, leased 3 steamers and 20 barges and purchased 2 small steamers and 9 small barges, the operating beginning October, 1918, and extending over the period covered by this statement, completing the month of June—we have not anything later. The financial statement has not yet been received for July. This showed a total loss of $411,169.79.

The CHAIRMAN. Since operation began in October of last year. Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes; but in that is included an item of $85,000, which was a disaster to one of the ships loaded with a cargo of coffee. The Railroad Administration does not insure its marine hazards, and while, of course, under the present system this is directly chargeable to the marine hazards, it is a very extraordinary loss to be charged for so short a period of time; in other words, the calculation should be based on 12 months instead of 9 months, but I mention it so you may know the exact condition for the period of 9 months.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you file those financial statements as a part of your statement?

Mr. TOMLINSON. I will be glad to, sir.

On the Warrior River, I neglected to say that they purchased 23 barges and 3 steamers that were owned by the coal companies there on the river and have been operating for nine months. Our new facilities are just beginning to be received.