APPENDIX F.

BRITISH EVIDENCE.

No. 1.

TUESDAY, July 31, 1877.

The conference met.

Captain SIMON CHIVARIE, forty-five years of age, of Souris, Prince Edward Island, was called on behalf of the Government of Her Britannic Majesty, sworn, and examined:

By Mr. Davies:

Question. For how many years have you followed the business of a fisherman-Answer. I have pursued it from the year 1848 up to the present season.

Q. As a business?-A. Yes.

Q. Where have you followed it; solely in British American waters ?— A. No. During part of this time I have fished on the American coast. I have principally fished, however, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Q. Where did you begin the business?-A. I began it in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, in an American schooner called the Josephine.

Q. In what year ?—A. In 1848.

Q. And did you so pursue it continuously?—A. We made one trip that season in this bay.

Q. And that was in British Canadian waters-in our own waters ?-A. Yes. Then I went back to the States, and came down next season in another schooner.

Q. What was your catch during the trip you have mentioned ?—A. Three hundred barrels. We only went one trip that season.

Q. And that was in the year 1848 ?—A. Yes.

Q. Speaking with reference to the tonnage of the fishing schooners, would you tell us whether there was much difference in them?-A. The general run of vessels was about sixty-five tons. Some, however, have gone as high as one hundred and thirty tons of late years.

Q. But during this year, 1848, and during the years 1850, '55, and '60, what was it?-A. There were a few large vessels having a tonnage of one hundred and forty.

Q. But what was the general average?—A. It was from seventy-five to eighty tons.

Q. What was the size of the Josephine?-A. It was seventy-five tons. Q. And you caught three hundred barrels in one trip; where was this? A. Yes. At the bend of the island.

Q. Will you explain what is the bend of the island?-A. It lies between the East Point and the North Cape of Prince Edward Island. Q. Speaking with reference to distance, will you tell us how far you fished from the shore in the bend of the island?—A. During that trip we caught fish principally within three miles of the shore. We were

very close to it, because it was in October, the latter part of the fishing

season.

Q. You are quite sure of that?-A. Yes.

Q. It was well within the three-mile limit?-A. Yes.

Q. And you caught all your fish during that trip inside of three miles from the shore ?-A. Yes.

Q. Where were you next season, captain ?-A. I was then, also, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Q. And in what vessel?-A. In the schooner Hezron.

Q. Where did you sail from ?-A. From Newburyport, in the United States.

Q. What was the size of this vessel ?-A. I think it was about eighty tons.

Q. Where did you go to fish ?-A. We fished principally on what is I called the West Shore.

Q. What is the West Shore?-A. It is on the Bay of Chaleurs.

Q. That is up at the north end of New Brunswick ?—A. It stretches from Miscou down to Miramichi. We always call this part the West Shore.

Q. Miscou is an island, lying at the mouth of the Bay of Chaleurs ?— A. Yes; it lies on the southwest side.

Q. And what was your catch?-A. We caught there during part of the trip. I remained there during the whole season in that vessel. We came down in July and remained the whole of the season. The vessel

was large, and was fitted out for one trip. The catch for the whole trip was, I think, about five hundred barrels. We fished during the first part of the season-July-on that coast; and in September we came down and fished along the bend of the island until October. We fished as we came down from the north; that is the general course followed 'by the fishermen.

Q. At this stage will you describe to the Commission, what course the fish take?-A. The mackerel make their first appearance off Cape May and Cape Hatteras, on the American coast, and those who fish for mackerel make it a point to go there first for them. The fish afterward come up to the Gulf.

Q. At what time of the year is this?-A. In May. They appear sometimes off these points as early as April-about the 20th, perhaps. They are followed down the coast off Cape Cod and Block Island, and caught. The great body of them go in this direction. When the mackerel are off the banks of the Georges, on the coast of the United States they disappear, and for the next week or ten days the vessels in this part are packing off.

Q. What do you mean by packing off?-A. Repacking, inspecting, and branding, and getting the fish ready for market.

Q. You land for that purpose?-A. Yes; and then start afresh. The next trip we call the bay trip. We come down to the bay in June.

Q. What do you call the bay?-A. The Gulf of the St. Lawrence. We then fit up for what we call the trip for poor mackerel. We leave the different ports in the United States about the 10th or the 15th of June, and follow the mackerel down the coast. We generally find them first on the Bank Bradley. We come up north and very often we may meet the mackerel also coming up along the coast. We make it a point to strike Bradley Bank and Orphan Bank, as we hit the first mackerel there. This bank is situated on the north end of Prince Edward Island. Q. This is right off Cape North, Prince Edward Island ?-A. Yes; we find the mackerel there in large quantities. Why we look for them there is, because it is customary to follow them up in that way, as they come to spawn on these banks. The mother fish make for these banks, and we always make it a point to meet them and catch them with the

hook. They generally bite well a few days before spawning. We catch them losing the spawn; and we secure large and heavy decks of them. We then take from fifty to sixty barrels a day. In a few days the fish disappear, and then all over the banks there are no fish for ten or twelve days afterwards.

Q. The fish are then spawning?-A. Yes; we then leave these grounds, and strike the fish off Bay Chaleurs on the west shore. We meet the mackerel then after spawning. We follow them as it were from Bank Bradley and Orphan Bank, after they spawn and strike them off the west shore, where they go to get food. Then we fish along the shore of the west coast on Bay Chaleurs, and go down the Gulf of the St. Lawrence, sometimes to Gaspe, and even as far as Seven Islands and Bic Island. I have been as far as Bic Island.

Q. What did I understand you to say-that the mackerel strike off shore after spawning?-A. We find that after spawning they seek food. They feed from the Bay of Chaleurs down this the southern part of the gulf. Their food consists of a small shrimp which is found in these waters. It gathers in the eddies.

Q. Are they found close to the shore?-A. Yes, they keep in the eddies near the shore, where the mackerel make for them.

Q. And the mackerel follow after this food.-A. Yes.

Q. On what other food do they live?-A. They live principally on this food.

Q. On these shrimps?-A. Yes; except up the Gulf of Saint Law rence, near Gaspe, where they feed on the lants, a small fish about three inches long.

Q. The sand-lants-A. Yes.

Q. This is from Gaspe farther north ?-A. From Gaspe to Bic Island and across, on the Labrador shore; in all that part of the coast.

Q. And down from Gaspe south they feed on the shrimp?-A. Yes. Q. Where are the shrimp found?—A. From the Bay of Chaleurs and around that part of the west shore, and down the coast of the island.

Q. Are these shrimps found in the open water in the gulf?—A. No; chiefly not. We do not notice them in the open gulf. They are mostly found in bays and in eddies along the coast. They are a small fish which you would hardly notice. If you draw up a bucket of water where they are you could see them in it.

Q. Coming back to the trip in the Hezron, during your second season, in what year did you make it ?-A. I think it was in the year 1849. Q. About what time did you say mackerel spawn?-A. Along about the first of July.

Q. And for some days they remain hidden; they strike off shore; how long do they remain in the grounds of the bay?-A. We generally allow them a week to spawn. We then come up to the Bay of Chaleurs, and we there meet the same mackerel.

Q. And how long do you remain there waiting for them?—A. For a week or ten days.

Q. And where do they go then?-A. They keep along the coast.

Q. Until when?-A. They so keep on till coming on the first of September. Along about the tenth of September the mackerel begin to move down the gulf.

Q. And where do they go?-A. They strike down the coast of Prince Edward Island.

Q. And how long do they remain along the coast of Prince Edward Island?-A. Until the last of October.

Q. And then they strike for-where ?-A. They strike along the north

side of Cape Breton at Margere Island, Port Hood, and Cheticamp; and then we follow them down to Sidney. We lose them there. They disappear. They take to the Nova Scotian shore, but the mackerel fleet does not follow them farther than Cape North and Scatari, at the south end of Cape Breton.

Q. They stop following them at Scatari?-A. Yes; the mackerel then stop biting.

Q. They return along Nova Scotia down to American waters?— A. Yes. Then we make it a point to get home as quickly as possible. We next strike the same school of mackerel about Cape Cod.

Q. You get home with your bay catch and you start again and pick them up above Cape Cod in American waters?-A. Yes.

Q. At what time of the year is this?-A. In November or in the last of October.

Q. From July to November you follow them in the bay?-A. Yes, we follow them in the bay until the 1st or the 10th of November.

Q. From what date?-A. We make it a point to leave on the first trip about the 15th of June.

Q. I understand that the fleet fish in the bay from about the 15th of June until somewhere about the 1st of November?-A. Yes. Sometimes some few vessels may remain, hanging around to see if there are any left, along up to the 10th of November, at Scatari and in these places.

Q. But the main fleet leave about the 1st of November?-A. Yes. It is a settled point that the fleet leave off mackerel fishing in the gulf on the 1st of November. Then these fish are caught from that time up to December on the American coast, off Block Island, Cape Cod, and these places. They then disappear and go off; I suppose down the Gulf Stream. We do not see them again until the next spring off Capes Cod, May, and Hatteras.

Q. You do not know where they go then?—A. I never follow them any farther-after they disappear.

By Sir Alexander Galt:

Q. Is there any mackerel fishing during the summer off the American coast? Do we understand that they are all gone north at this season ?— A. Yes, there is. Some seasons mackerel remain scattered all along the shore, but the main body of the mackerel strike down this bay. The mackerel that remain on the American shore are of smaller size. They are caught off Cape Cod and along the island.

By Mr. Davies:

Q. You said something about the size of these mackerel ?-A. They are of smaller size than those of the main body which comes to the bay. Q. The small fish remain on the American shore ?—A. Yes.

Q. If the fish are large does it follow that they come north ?-A. Yes. Q. How do you explain that?-A. I have followed the business up as a fisherman pretty closely, and my experience has been this: We find the Banks in the Gulf in the fall of the year, after spawning, filled up with small mackerel, about three or four inches long, and we take them to be the results of the spawn of that season; and next year we find these mackerel in these waters about six inches long. Q. What do you call them then ?-A. Tinkers. That is the term we give them at this time. And these mackerel are known on the third year to remain, principally on the American coast. They are then what they call medium mackerel, and they are about ten inches in length at this period.