in some places carried on so close that the fishermen would go on shore for their meals every day at meal-hours?-A. This is at New Harbor on the western shore, and at one or two other harbors. They fish at these points very close to the shore. On one or two occasions I saw the people belonging to the shore calling them to dinner. I made inquiry of the people, and they told me that they put their moorings down in autumn within a short distance of the shore, and fished for six months with the same moorings. They would thus proceed with the fishery during the winter months, and when the spring opened they laid their moorings down a little farther off.

Q. To all intents and purposes it is entirely an inshore fishery?—A. Yes; there can be no doubt of that.

Q. Do you remember, Mr. Bennett, the period during which the Reciprocity Treaty between Great Britain and the United States was in operation-A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware whether, during that period, American vessels did fish on the Newfoundland coast and obtain bait there?-A. No. Dnriug that period they never used their fishing privileges; in fact, I think they never came on the coast until within the last four years before the treaty expired.

Q. With regard to the herring-fishery of Fortune Bay-is it prosecuted to any very considerable extent by Newfoundlanders and others, and how-A. As a matter of commerce.

Q. In both ways?-A. It is carried on to a large extent for bait. Americans get a large quantity of bait there, and the French also.

The

Q. Is it from Fortune Bay that the fishermen of Saint Pierre and Miquelon are supplied with bait?-A. Yes; also from Placentia Bay; but they are principally supplied from Fortune Bay.

Q. Are the herring sold to the French in a fresh state?-A. Yes, and they buy large quantities of them.

Q. What, on the average, would be the quantity of bait supplied to the French vessels for baiting purposes?-A. It would be very large. Q. Does it altogether consist of herring?-A. No, not of herring; caplin and squid.

Q. Can you form an estimate as to the average quantity supplied?— A. I think that the quantity taken by each vessel would be, for the larger bankers, from 100 to 200 barrels of herring for each trip, and from 80 to 200 barrels of caplin for each trip; as to squid, I could scarcely form an estimate, because they are in the habit of taking large quanti ties of it in their own harbors of Saint Pierre and Langley, besides buy. ing from English fishermen.

Q. These fish are bought by the French ?-A. Yes.

Q. And then they are used for the purposes of the Bank fishery ?—A. Yes.

Q. Have the Americans obtained bait there since the Washington Treaty came into operation?-A. Yes, and previously; indeed, they have secured large quantities. Of course, previously, it was illegal to do so, but they avoided coming near where there was any magistrate or customs officer. Then, however, they did not come to the coast to any great extent; they did so to a limited extent.

Q. As a matter of fact, did they then come there?-A. They did. Q. To localities distant from any magistrate or customs officers ?-A. Precisely. In 1872, over two hundred sail of American vessels came to Fortune Bay. They were then made bolder, because that was the year when the Washington Treaty was negotiated; and although it was not

at the time accepted by Newfoundland, still it was assumed they had a right to come. They did, at all events, come for bait.

Q. Did they catch it themselves or buy it from the people?—A. They partly caught it and partly bought it. They made arrangements with fishermen, which they called selling bait, but it was partially selling and partially catching. I will describe it. They were in the habit of calling into some of the outlying harbors, Balloran, St. Jacques, and English, and one or two others, and making arrangements with some man who had a seine; and they would then go up Fortune Bay, say to Long Harbor, fifteen or eighteen miles up, or to Mal Bay, Bay Recontre, or Bay d'North; there are deep arms in the bay, with bait in them all the season round, and they are very quiet places for the taking of bait. They make arrangements with the seine owner to go himself and catch, with their assistance, what bait they require. They usually pay out during the summer about $20 for each trip, and take from fifty to eighty barrels of herring. They pay it in a lump sum for the use of the seine and the skill of the seine owner. The latter would be unable to haul the seine without the assistance of the American crew from the schooner. The crew do the work, and the Newfoundland skipper conducts the operations.

Q. The crew of the American vessel actually takes the bait?-A. As far as my experience has gone, yes. I observed matters very narrowly that year, and I never knew a crew of Newfoundland fishermen during this time wholly take the bait for the Americans. I have only known of it being procured in the way I have told you.

Q. So that is what the Newfoundlanders, in common conversation, term selling bait to the Americans?-A. Certainly; quite so. There may have been cases in which the Americans were supplied with bait, when Newfoundlanders had illegally stopped herrings. What I mean by stopping herrings is, to put out a large seine and surround a large school of herring in a quiet place, and keep them thus inclosed for a month or more. If the Americans wanted bait quickly, they might have on some occasions purchased it from those who had stopped herrings in this manner. It is an illegal practice, and is only carried out in places where custom officers or magistrates have no supervision; that is, too far away from them to permit of this being done effectually. Such purchase, of course, encourages illegal conduct on the part of our people.

Q. The herring come in very large quantities and run up into small, deep inlets, where a stop of seines has been put across ?-A. Not across. They surround the schools of herring.

Q. They are then kept inclosed for a month, you say?—A. I am told a month, and I believe it. I am quite certain that it is the case. Many of the fish die; and sometimes a gale of wind necessitates the tripping of the seine and the taking of it up. The whole mass of the herrings is then killed, and allowed to remain on the bottom and rot.

Q. There is a law which prohibits this custom?-A. Yes; it has existed for many years.

Q. What is your opinion regarding the effect of that mode of fishing on the herring-fishery?-A. I think it is most destructive, and the law prohibiting it I consider to be a most wise oue. It was found necessary many years ago to pass a law prohibiting the use of seines from the 1st of November until the 12th of April, and prohibiting absolutely the use of seines for any other purpose except that of casting and forthwith drawing them. This extra demand for bait no doubt has arisen in consequence of the Americans coming there, and, I suppose, inducing parties to commit a breach of the law outside the effectual jurisdiction of

customs officers or magistrates. I believe that they are very scarce around the coast. It is very thinly settled, and has very few customhouse officers staticned along it. There are not nearly as many of them as are required now, whatever may have been the case in former times. More are now needed, because there is more inducement presented to violate the law than there was before the Washington Treaty was negotiated.

Q. And there are now more facilities for smuggling?-A. O, precisely. There is no doubt about that.

Q. The population of the island is about 150,000?-A. Yes.

Q. How are the people located around the coast-A. The farthest official of the Newfoundland Government is stationed at Channel. Then there are three on this southern coast until you arrive at Briton Harbor, where one is stationed; and then, say for sixty miles up the bay, there are no customs officers or magistrates, unfortunately.

Q. The officials of the government of Newfoundland are stationed be. tween Channel on the south and around to where ?-A. To Tilt Cove on the north; but there is no government official on the north of the island. Q. And there is none between Cape John and Cape Ray on the other coast-A. No.

Q. And you say that they are even scarce on the portion of the coast you have pointed out?-A. O, there are large tracts of the country where there is no government official.

Q. Are the people living in every small cove and inlet along the coast? A. Yes; on this southern coast they are.

Q. And north, too?-A. In the north every harbor is settled; but the harbors are not so numerous on the southern part of the island.

Q. They are in smaller numbers?-A. Yes.

Q. Do all of them carry on the fishery?-A. Yes. When I say all, I might explain that the agriculturists are very few in number. The cen. sus will show that they are not numerous, and they are not really agriculturists, because they pursue fishery and agriculture combined.

Q. You spoke of the herring fishery at Fortune Bay; is there a large winter fishery carried on there?-A. This has been the case for a number of years. During the Reciprocity Treaty it was prosperous; in fact, it was the only branch of commerce in Newfoundland that benefited to any extent by the Reciprocity Treaty. At that time there was a large herring fishery for the supply of the slaves of the Southern States, principally Virginia and North and South Carolina, and also for the supply of the West Indies. The description of herring caught in this bay is very suitable for hot climates and these markets. From 60,000 to 70,000 barrels of herring were annually taken for the purpose of being exported from Fortune Bay alone for several years, until the war broke out.

Q. These were not caught, I think, by Americans, but purchased from Fortune Bay people?-A. The Americans themselves did not engage in it. During the first six years of the Reciprocity Treaty it was wholly in the hands of those doing business on the Newfoundland coast.

Q. And, during the last four years of the Reciprocity Treaty, you say that it was altogether carried on by the Americans by purchasing from Newfoundlanders?-A. Yes.

Q. They did not fish there themselves?-A. No; not during the existence of the Reciprocity Treaty.

Q. Since the Washington Treaty came into operation, has any new trade in herring, in which the Americans are concerned, sprung up?-A. They began, four years before the Reciprocity Treaty terminated, to ship herring in a frozen state to supply the New York market and to supply

their fishermen at Cape Ann with early bait for the George's Bank. They fish on the George's Bank during February and March. Some 30 or 40 vessels commenced to come there perhaps two or three years before the Reciprocity Treaty expired, and afterwards they still continued to come.

Q. Have American vessels during the last two or three years, since the Washington Treaty has come in operation, taken large cargoes of herring to Sweden and other countries from Fortune Bay ?-A. I believe so. I have heard so, and I believe that it is a fact. Q. You have no doubt of it?-A. None at all. it myself, but there is no doubt of the fact at all.

I have not observed

Q. And as a matter of fact, you also know that the herring fishery of Fortune Bay and Placentia Bay is very prolific?-A. Yes.

Q. Do they take or purchase the herring sent to Sweden and the States-A. I think they generally purchase. I have known them, however, to catch herring themselves. I remember that a steamer called Montecello came there and caught large cargoes. This was some four years ago, I think.

Q. You were a member of the legislature for some time?—A. Yes; for eleven or twelve years.

Q. And you have some knowledge concerning general statistical information and customs returns relating to the island?-A. Yes.

Q. Will you kindly refer to those returns and read their heading ?— A. This is a return showing the quantities and values of fish and products of fish imported from the United States of America, and exported to the United States and all other countries from the Colony of Newfoundland during each year from 1851 to 1876 included.

Q. That relates to twenty-six years?—A. Yes.

Q. Judging from these returns, what advantage is, or is any advantage, derived by Newfoundland from the concessions made to you by the Washington Treaty ?-A. You cannot infer from these returns that Newfoundland has reaped any advantage from any commercial concession made under the Washington Treaty. On the contrary, the exports of Newfoundland products to the United States since the ratification of the Washington Treaty have been very much lower than they were during the period when there was a heavy duty on these products. They have since been very much less. The average value of these exports for the four years preceding the Reciprocity Treaty amounted to $225,722, and for the twelve years ending with the Reciprocity Treaty, $367,500, and for the seven years after the abrogation of that treaty, $348.281; and during the three years the Washington Treaty has been in existence the average value of the exports of Newfoundland to the United States has been $222,112.

Q. Then they were less under the present Washington Treaty than they were while there were heavy duties imposed?-A. They were very much so.

Q. What deduction do you draw from that?-A. That the quantity exported to the United States is so trifling it has no appreciable effect on the commerce of Newfoundland. For instance, the quantity of fish shipped last year from Newfoundland to the United States was about 9,000 or 10,000 quintals out of a catch of 1,300,000 quintals. It is a mere bagatelle.

Q. Who supplies, then, the American market with fish ?-A. They supply themselves. They have greater facilities to do so under the treaty than they had before. There is no likelihood of Newfoundland ever having to supply them now, whatever it might have done before

granting them the privilege to catch fish inshore and take bait on the

coast.

Q. Your exports to the United States amounted to far more when the duty existed than now the duty is off?-A. Yes.

Q. The Americans, having now the privilege to catch fish and bait on the Newfoundland coast, they, you say, supply themselves?—A. To a large extent.

Q. What are the markets essentially of Newfoundland?—A. Our largest markets are the Brazils, the Mediterranean, and England. To Spain, Portugal, Italy, and England we send the Labrador fish, an inferior description. But our best markets are certainly the Brazils.

Q. Are your fish cured in a particular manner to suit the requirements of those markets?-A. They are. The Brazils require a very hard-cured fish, and a very superior quality of fish; and in Spain they require a very hard and well and carefully cured fish; also up the Mediterranean.

Q. Are you aware as to whether fish have been imported into the United States from Newfoundland, and exported to the Brazils, West Indies, and other tropical markets?-A. I am not personally aware of it, but I believe such is the case. I have heard so from those who told me they exported fish.

Q. Are you aware of any difference in the mode of curing American and Newfoundland fish?—A. There is a very great difference. I have observed curing at the establishments at Cape Ann, Gloucester, and have visited there. The usual mode was to dry the fish three or four days, not generally more than four days, they told me, and then it was fit for home consumption. It would not stand a hot climate, nor would it answer to keep.

Q. Their fish is brought in in salt from the banks?-A. And then it is put in pickle in the stores, and, as required, it was sold out, perhaps 100 quintals with three days' drying, and another hundred quintals might require five days' drying, according to the distance it had to go. This was the system they told me they had pursued at Gloucester.

Q. Would fish so cured be suitable for the Brazil or Mediterranean market?-A. No. Our fish is kept on hand sometimes for six months. It would not answer at all unless it was hard-cured, and that requires from four to six weeks, under a moderate sun and cool winds.

Q. You are well aware of the climate of Cape Ann, Gloucester, and that neighborhood, and also of Newfoundland. What is your opinion, with regard to that climate, as to suitability for curing fish for tropical markets?-A. I don't think it is suited. It is too humid and too hot. I find it oppressively hot here, and I know it is much hotter at Gloucester and Cape Ann.

Q. What would be the effect upon the fish?-A. I am certain the fish would melt-would fall to pieces. If they attempted to cure with light salting, as in Newfoundland, where the curing is found more suitable for the Brazils and European markets, I am sure the fish would be sunburnt and fall to pieces, and it would not be a merchantable article. I am quite certain of that.

Q. How long does it take to cure fish in Newfoundland?-A. To thoroughly cure fish fit for those markets, from 4 to 6 weeks.

Q. Then, in your opinion, the opening out of the United States markets, coupled with the concession to the Americans to fish on our coasts, is really no advantage whatever to the people of Newfoundland ?—A. Í think not. The statistics prove it is no advantage; they speak better than any other testimony.

Q. You are fully aware of the mode in which the Americans formerly