Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. It is considered an agreement so far as the executive branch of the governments are concerned; that they will carry this agreement out in assigning frequencies in Canada, so far as they are concerned, and that we will do the same thing so far as we are concerned. It is just a working agreement between the executive officers of the two countries.

Senator PITTMAN. Has not the agreement, if it was made in conformity with the treaty, become a part of the treaty?

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. It has.

Senator PITTMAN. It is enforceable the same as any other treaty. Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. Yes, sir; and would have to be terminated in the same way.

Senator BROOKHART. If it should come into court it seems to me, if it is in conformity with the treaty, it would be treated as the law of the land. And if the treaty was changed in any way, then it would have to be submitted to the Senate.

Senator PITTMAN. Yes.

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. The stipulation says it must be in conformity with the treaty.

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Of course, as to the broadcasting situation there was a difference in the situation in the two countries at the beginning. There was much more interest in broadcasting in this country at the beginning than in Canada. We established stations all over our country, and took wave lengths. There was no question of a division in the beginning. When Canada wanted to establish a good many broadcasting stations they found practically all the channels taken by the United States, and they did not like it at all. They have asked over and over again for more channels, and the Canadian newspapers are pretty sarcastic about it, and want to know whether we own the air, and so forth.

But when it came to this short-wave matter the situation was dif ferent. We then understood a lot more about the radio situation, and therefore it was possible at the beginning to talk things over with Canada and come to an agreement as to the number of channels that each country really needed. When our people came back from Canada, I said to them: "Now, can you state to me that in your opinion this agreement gives the United States all the channels for this particular service that we actually need?" They said: "Absolutely we can say that." They said: "On the other hand, it will not give us all the channels that will be asked for, because there will be any number of communication companies that will want channels." But, they said: "The channels we have will not fulfill all the demands, any more than all the demands would be fulfilled if we had all of the channels." Senator DILL. What does this agreement provide as to wave lengths in broadcasting?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Nothing. This agreement does not touch broadcasting.

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. This refers to short waves.

Senator DILL. Then as to the broadcasting situation, that is still a gentleman's agreement?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes.

Senator DILL. For what reason was it left out of this agreement? Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Because that situation was too complicated, and because already there was disagreement on that subject.

So we agreed to leave that subject out and to try to reach an agreement if possible on something about which we thought we could make an agreement.

Senator DILL. What does the agreement provide about short waves? Assistant Secretary CASTLE. I will look that up.

The CHAIRMAN. While you are looking that up I should like to ask a question for information: Do I understand that the relations between Canada and ourselves remain the same so far as the broadcasting waves are concerned?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes; it did not affect them at all. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman's agreement is still in force? Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That provides how many waves lengths shall be used for broadcasting?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. At the present time we have, of the exclusive wave lengths, all except six. Canada has six exclusive broadcasting wave lengths, but feels they should have 12.

Senator DILL. Mr. Vallance, just what is the situation there? Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. As has been stated, Canada has six exclusive broadcasting wave lengths out of a total of 96, and then it has 11 shared wave lengths, we having a part of those 11 shared wave lengths-that is, those 11 wave lengths are shared by ourselves and Canada, and an effort is made that there shall be no interference, or as little as possible by broadcasting stations in one country with broadcasting stations in the other.

Senator DILL. Then there are 79 cleared broadcasting wave lengths that we have?

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. Yes, sir.

Senator DILL. What about the short waves?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. As to the short waves, they allocated 228 general communication channels

Senator DILL (interposing). What were the frequencies or kilocycles?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Between 1,500 and 6,000 kilocycles. Senator DILL. All right. Will you go on and finish your statement?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. As I say, they allocated 228 channels to general communication services. Of the 65 channels below 3,412 kilocycles, the United States got 34, which are shared with Newfoundland and Canada. Of the 163 channels above 3,412 kilocycles we got 112 for our exclusive use. Of the 65 channels below 3,412 kilocycles Canada got 48, shared with other nations; and of the 163 channels above 3,412 kilocycles Canada got 38 exclusive channels except as shared with Newfoundland. Then Newfoundland got 17 channels below 3,412 kilocycles which she shares with the United States. Cuba got 15 channels below 3,412 kilocycles which she shares with Canada-but of course there is very little interference between Cuba and Canada-and Cuba got of the channels above 3,412 kilocycles, 5 exclusive channels. And then under the heading "Other nations," which means Mexico, and so on, they got 16 channels below 3,412 kilocycles shared with Canada, and 8 exclusive channels above 3,412 kilocycles.

Senator DILL. Central America was not brought into this, as I understand.

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. They were in the term "other nations," but the countries to the south do not interfere on the most

of these waves.

Senator DILL. Was anything done on channels below 6,000 kilocycles, the high frequencies?

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. No, sir.

Senator DILL. Now you have a graph or chart there in black and white, I believe?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. This is the broadcasting band.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe it was agreed that a copy of the agreement with Canada should be put in the record.

Senator DILL. Yes; I think it should be in our record. It has not been published, as I understand.

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. It has been issued to the press by the State Department.

Senator DILL. But it has not been published in any Government document.

Assistant Solicitor VALLANCE. I have furnished it to the committee reporter.

Senator PITTMAN. Mr. Castle, let me ask you a question: In making these agreements under the treaty, is that done in conformity with advice of the Federal Radio Commission, or is it in accordance. with a separate board of engineers, for instance, that the State Department has?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. The agreement was made as the result of the work of the joint commission, which studied the whole question. Our three delegates were, two members of the Federal Radio Commission, and Mr. Terrell, the head of the radio division of the Department of Commerce.

Senator DILL. As I understand it, Canada claims to need a great many short-wave channels because of her far northern areas, where no wires could be used.

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes.

Senator DILL. And she was given certain rights in consideration of that situation that she would not have been given otherwise. Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And that does not materially affect our work, does it?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. That seemed to all of our people a very reasonable amount, because there is need of communication with those northern sections where you could never put up wires. It would not be done, in the first place, as the Canadians very well pointed out since there is nothing that would remain for any length of time. Even if wires were put up, they probably would be destroyed the first winter.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything, Mr. Castle, that you desire to volunteer, or have you concluded your statement?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. I wondered if you would like to put in your record, and it is an interesting thing, a copy of the report of the Imperial Wireless and Cable Conference, 1928. It was held in London, and was the conference which brought about the merger in the empire of cable and radio communication.

Senator DILL. What does it contain?

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. It contains the report of the committee which was considering the whole matter of a merger, and gives various recommendations as to the merger company, and the communications company.

Senator DILL. And the reasons, I take it, why they thought it should be done.

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. Yes; the reasons why they thought it should be done, and the reasons why they thought there should be a Government representative on it to bring about unified policy in the empire.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection that report will be made a part of the record.

Assistant Secretary CASTLE. It is interesting as showing the determination to get this thing in their own hands.

(The English print of the Imperial Wireless and Cable Conference, 1928, is here made a part of the record, as follows:)

IMPERIAL WIRELESS AND CABLE CONFERENCE, 1928

[Report presented to Parliament by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury by Command of His Majesty, July, 1928]

REPRESENTATIVES

Great Britain.-The Rt. Hon. Sir John Gilmour, Bt., D. S. O., M. P., Secretary of State for Scotland (chairman); Mr. A. M. Samuel, M. P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Canada. Sir Campbell Stuart, K. B. E.

Commonwealth of Australia.-Mr. Clive L. Baillieu, O. B. E.

New Zealand.-The Hon. Sir James Parr, K. C. M. G., High Commissioner for New Zealand.

Union of South Africa.-Mr. H. J. Lenton, Postmaster General and Secretary, Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Irish Free State. Mr. R. J. Cremins, Second Assistant to Director of Telegraphs and Telephones.

India. Sir Atul Chatterjee, K. C. I. E., High Commissioner for India. Colonies and protectorates.-Brig. Gen. Sir Samuel Wilson, K. C. B., K. C. M. G., K. B. E., Permanent Undersecretary of State for the Colonies.

DEPUTY REPRESENTATIVES AND EXPERT ADVISERS

Great Britain.-Sir Evelyn Murray, K. C. B., secretary, general post office; Mr. M. F. Headlam, C. B., Comptroller General, national debt office; Mr. F. Phillips, C. B., treasury.

Canada.-Mr. L. J. Gaboury, Deputy Postmaster-General; Commander C. P. Edwards, O. B. E., Director of Radio Telegraphy.

Commonwealth of Australia.—Mr. H. P. Brown, M. B. E., Director-General of Posts and Telegraphs.

New Zealand.-Mr. John Milward, Late Manager in the Pacific of the Pacific Cable Board.

India. Mr. M. G. Simpson, C. S. I., director-in-chief, Indo-European_telegraph department, India office; Mr. P. J. Edmunds, director of wireless in India. Financial advisers to the conference. Sir Otto Niemeyer, G. B. E., K. C. B.; Sir William McLintock, K. B. E., C. V. O.

Publicity Officer to the Conference.-Mr. D. Caird, C. B. E.

SECRETARIAT

Wing Commander Sir Norman Leslie, Bt., C. B. E., Committee of Imperial Defense (secretary); Mr. H. G. G. Welch, general post office; Mr. C. R. Price, Dominions office, assistant secretaries.

REPORT

I. INTRODUCTION

1. We were appointed "to examine the situation which has arisen as a result of the competition of the beam wireless with the cable services, to report thereon and to make recommendations with a view to a common policy being adopted by the various Governments concerned." We accordingly submit the following report. 2. We held out first meeting on Monday, the 16th of January, 1928, and decided, in the first instance, to address communications to the cable and wireless interests concerned, inquiring whether they wished to give evidence before the conference.

As a result of these inquiries, representatives of the following companies attended meetings of the conference and explained the nature and status of their undertakings, their relationship with the Governments concerned, and their views in regard to the problems before the conference: the Eastern and Associated Telegraph Cos.; the Indo-European Telegraph Co.; Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Co.; the Canadian Marconi Co.; the Wireless Telegraph Co. of South Africa.; the Indian Radio Telegraph Co.

Memoranda or written representations were submitted on behalf of each of the above companies, and information was also furnished on behalf of the Pacific Cable Board.

The board of directors of the Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) (Ltd.), considered that for proper representation to be made on their behalf it would be necessary for some one thoroughly acquainted with the subject and having direct knowledge of the board's views to travel from Australia to England, which could not be done under four months. The conference was unable to suspend its deliberations for this purpose.

3. The conference held 34 meetings. A list of persons who have attended these meetings as witnesses is attached as an appendix.

4. The conference also received a deputation from the Empire Press Union, the executive of which had previously submitted a statement of their views, and communications were received from the Federation of British Industries and the London Chamber of Commerce, submitting views and resolutions relating to the problems before the conference.

II. THE PROBLEM

5. Telegraph systems of the Empire.-At the time when the conference assembled, the situation in regard to cable and wireless communications between the various parts of the Empire had been fundamentally affected by the opening of the imperial "beam" wireless services.

6. Before the advent of the "beam," telegraphic communication depended upon the following services:

(a) Great Britain and Canada.

(i) The two "Imperial" trans-Atlantic cables owned by His Majesty's Government in Great Britain.

(ii) A long-wave wireless service, conducted in Great Britain by Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Co., and in Canada by the Canadian Marconi Co.;

(iii) Cables of two American companies, viz, the Commercial Cable Co. and the Western Union Telegraph Co.;

(iv) Cables of the Anglo-American Telegraph Co. (British), leased for 99 years, from April 1, 1911, to the Western Union Telegraph Co.

(b) Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand.-(i) The cables to Canada referred to in (a) above, thence, across Canada, land lines rented from the Canadian Pacific Railway Co., and thence the cables of the Pacific cable board between Bamfield (British Columbia) and Southport (Queensland), Sydney (New South Wales), and Auckland (New Zealand). (The Imperial TransAtlantic Cables, the land lines across Canada and the Pacific Cables, thus provide an "All Red" route, no part of which lies in foreign territory);

(ii) The system of the Eastern Telegraph Co. and its associated companies.

Of these, No. 1 consists mainly of an ex-German cable by way of the Azores which formerly connected Germany and the United States of America, but was cut at sea on the outbreak of war in 1914 and subsequently linked at the eastern end with Penzance and at the western end with Halifax, Nova Scotia. No. 2 also connects Penzance and Halifax, by way of Harbour Grace, Newfoundland, and was purchased as an auxiliary cable in 1920.