those seas, and to carry our cargoes to India and China free from all restrictions, and to trade with every part of those countries, like all the other nations of the earth. He also hoped that our foreign trade would be their prayer he fully and entirely concurred. In another part of their Petition the petitioners seemed to glance at the exchange of existing taxes for a property-tax. If ever an opportunity should be afforded to him for expressing his opinion upon that sub-extended in other directions, and especially ject, he should do so; but he might be per- by the cultivation of a closer commercial inmitted to say that this, at all events, was tercourse with the States of South America. not the proper time for discussing the ex- He should now advert to the other quarters pediency of such a measure. He had stated to which he looked for relief of the Shipthe several requests of these petitioners, ping interest in the shape of extension of and the grounds upon which they rested trade. He hoped that every restriction their claim to the attention and considera- that pressed upon British commerce would tion of the House; he had stated those be removed. He thought that many burpoints with regard to which he agreed with thens which now weighed upon the navigathe petitioners, and those points with re- tion and commerce of the country might be gard to which he differed from them; and in very judiciously taken off, and he should dissenting from them, he would add that the allude, in the first place, to a burthen, of petitioners were gentlemen as fully competent which he thought the Ship-owners very to form a correct opinion upon the subjects to justly complained, he meant the cost and which they alluded as any Gentleman in that expense of the coast-lights. That was a House. He should now proceed to state heavy burthen upon the Ship-owners. what he conceived would be the best means These coast-lights were farmed out, it was of affording relief to this important national well known, by the nobility and gentry of interest. There were only two things- the country, who derived a large revenue only two quarters-to which he could look from keeping them up, and the expense of for relief for the shipping of this country. their maintenance was levied upon the The first of these measures was to extend Ship-owners. That burthen ought to be the foreign trade of this country in every removed. There was also another opprespossible direction in which it could be ex- sive burthen upon Ship-owners in the shape tended, and the other was, to remove from of rates for pilotage, which should likewise the Ship-owners every burthen that at pre- be taken off. There was also another sent prevented the extension of our foreign burthen, called the "Greenwich-chest," trade. He conceived that the petitioners which was a tax of 6d. per month upon were fairly entitled to that species of relief every seaman's wages. That was a large at the hands of Parliament. With respect sum of money to be levied off the scamen. to the first point,-he alluded to the exten- It was levied for the benefit of Greenwich sion of our foreign trade, he would say that Hospital, and he (Mr. Sykes) should like to he looked forward with considerable hope know why the seaman who received no to the alteration which he trusted would benefit whatever from it should be combe made on the renewal of the East-India pelled to contribute to a fund that was not Company's charter. He should be griev-devoted in any way to the support of the ously disappointed, and so would the parties he represented on that occasion, if, upon the renewal of that charter, the British seaman should be prevented from going to any part of India or China to which the sailors or shipping of any other nation was permitted to go. It would be most detrimental to the commercial interests of this country, and a most galling injustice towards British seamen, if all other nations should be allowed to trade freely to the continent of China, while British seamen should be alone excluded from a participation in that trade. He therefore looked forward with considérable anxiety to the period when that charter should come to be renewed, and he trusted that the result would be, that we should be hereafter permitted to navigate VOL. XXIII. mercantile marine of the country. A far more important consideration, however, was the heavy taxes laid by the Government on articles used by the Ship-owner; and a reduction of those which pressed most heavily on him ought undoubtedly to be made. Why, for instance, should the present enormous duty upon hemp be kept up, while reductions had been made in the duties on tallow and other kinds of Russian produce? By reducing the duty upon hemp, the Shipowners would be able to get their cordage and other articles at a considerably reduced price. There was another matter which had been already ably pressed upon the consideration of the House by an hon. friend of his, he meant the reduction of the stamp duties upon marine insurances. 2 R petitioners did not suggest a remedy for from 1821 to 1824 and from 1826 to 1829, all FREIGHTS. From 1821 to 1824.-Memel per ton. While these duties produced but a small £1 3 3 -7 9 7 1 9 -6 6 7 .13 0 Being equal to a diminution of 15l. 7s. 7d. per cent. PROVISIONS AND WAGES, From 1821 to 1824-Beef . . £4 19 4 Pork... 3 10 3 Pork 9 6 -12 0 10 5 15 3 4 1 10 Per cent increase 14 11 4 By that, it appeared that the total alteration against the Ship-owner in the latter period, compared with the former, was 297. 18s. 11d. per cent. These facts spoke volumes as to the distress which prevailed in the Shippinginterest. It was impossible that the Shipowners could remain passive under such circumstances, and see their property thus slipping out of their hands, without making some effort to procure relief. The fact was, that the Shipping-interest of this country had been depreciated 100 per cent. Their distress had been going on increasing from year to year, and that fact alone should be sufficient to induce his Majesty's Government to turn its attention to the subject, with a view to afford them some relief. The petitioners merely laid their case before Parliament; they stated that many of the Ship-owners in this country had been re duced to beggary, and that if things went on as at present, and no measures were devised for their relief, their situation would be perfectly hopeless and ruin must ensuc. It was impossible that Parliament could allow this interest, which contributed so materially to the maintenance of the national glory and honour, thus to sink into utter and complete ruin. All that he asked on the part of the petitioners was, that the Government and the House would apply themselves to the subject, for the purpose of devising some remedial measures for the relief of this great and important national interest. Mr. Marryat said, I have listened with attention to the statement of the hon. Gentleman who presented the Petition, and I can affirm, from my own knowledge, that the distress of the Shipping-interest is by no means exaggerated. The Shipowners were the first interest to experience that distress which has since unfortunately pervaded all classes: they have suffered long, and most severely. The evidence of this may be found in the present indifferent construction and parsiraonious equipment of those vessels, which formerly stood preeminent in the commercial marine of the world. I remember the time when a British ship was insured at half the premium asked upon the foreigner. Now, from the causes I have stated, a foreign vessel is often preferred to the British. Notwithstanding this, I am afraid that it is not possible to grant effectual relief by legislative measures. In my judgment, the distress is to be ascribed to the natural approximation to the low prices and profits of foreign nations, which has arisen from the free intercourse since the peace. It is well known that the price which our surplus commodities command in the foreign market regulates the price at home. We have more shipping than we can employ in our coasting and colonial trades (which are, in fact, our home market as regards shipping.) The surplus ships seek employment in foreign trades, where they must of necessity navigate upon terms as low as foreign ships. These low freights bring down the freight of British ships at home to the same level; and thus cause a universal depression. I sincerely lament this distress, but am afraid the proposed remedies would in the end only increase the evil. To restrict our imports to British bottoms only, would be useless, unless we could at the same time reduce our shipping to the exact quantity necessary for our own trade, so as to have no surplus requiring employment in the foreign trade. Such being my conviction, I see no means of alleviating the British Ship-owner, except by reducing the duties upon all articles required in the construction and outfit of his vessels, in order that he may, by cheapness of materials, be enabled in some degree to compete with his foreign rival. Mr. Robinson said, he had been particularly requested by the petitioners to support the prayer of this Petition, and he rose to discharge that duty with very great pleasure. The petitioners complained, that since the period when they asked for a Committee of Inquiry-namely, the Session before last, when that committee was refused, the depression which then existed in their trade, so far from getting better, since that time had gone on continually increasing; that the diminution in the value of their property had proceeded at rapid strides; that the rate of freights had become still lower; and that their ships were employed now in many instances without any profitable return. It became the House to consider whether this important national interest should be consigned to ruin without any effort being made to afford it relief. His hon. friend, in presenting the Petition, had said, that the petitioners did not point out any particular remedy for their distress. They certainly did not, because they were of opinion that, without inquiry, it would be presumptuous on their part to dictate to the House the species of remedy which they conceived should be employed for the removal of the distress. It was for the House to institute an inquiry, and to apply the proper remedy. He recollected that in the course of an incidental discussion upon this subject last Session, the hon. member for Liverpool (Mr. Huskisson) said, that he did not believe that the Shipping-interest was so much depressed as it was described to be, for that we went on building ships, and he could not be satisfied that the Shipping-interest was in such distress while that was the case. He was obliged, however, to deny the correctness of that statement at the time, and he would refer the hon. Member to an account of the number 1223 Shipping Interest. {COMMONS} of ships built in the years 1827, 1828, and 1827 1828 1829 1830 Ships. 1,719 1,440 1,185 Tons. 207,088 163,946 1,075 ... ..... 110,681 Thus exhibiting a decrease of 279 vessels, and 43,142 tons, in 1828; of 534 vessels, and 78,336 tons, in 1829; and of 644 vessels, and 96,407 tons, in the last year, 1830, as compared with the year 1827. That table showed that there had been a diminution of nearly one-half in the amount of tonnage built during a period of only three years. That was an important fact to illustrate the present condition of the Shipping-interest, and was more impressive than the mere fact of the quantity of employment obtained by our ships, which had been cited as an argument to prove that the distress was not so general as had been stated. The truth was, that whatever ships were in existence must be employed, or abandoned altogether, as property, for that was the only alternative. If they were not employed and kept, they occasioned a ruinous expense without any profit. But were they to be seriously told, that when persons employed vessels they must necessarily make profits by them? It was not, in fact, possible to tell, when a vessel commenced a voyage, that it would turn out advantageous, which could only be determined at the end of the voyage. It should be recollected, too, that the Ship-owner always went on hoping for an improvement, though the state of his trade might be every day getting worse and worse. could prove that, by a reference to the number of foreign and British ships trading to the ports in the Baltic. His hon. friend, Shipping Interest. 1224 the member for Hull, had expressed his dissent from the opinions of the petitioners, with reference to what he (Mr. Robinson) would say, was falsely called the system of reciprocity. That system, conjoined with other causes, had increased the depression and distress of the Shipping-interests of this country. It was not possible for British ships, while burthened with one-third more expense, and subject to increased charges in the shape of taxes, to compete with foreign ships. To prove that, he would refer to an official return of the number of Foreign and British vessels which had cleared outwards for and entered inwards from the ports of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Russia. The number of foreign vessels entered inwards from those countries for the different ports of the United Kingdom in the year 1829 was 1,946; the number of British vessels employed in that trade for the same period was only 1,164— the foreign tonnage amounted to 293,402 tons, and the British to 187,822 tons. The number of foreign seamen employed was 14,573, and the number of British only 8,554. It would be found too, that a similar disproportion existed between the number of British and foreign vessels The number of foreign cleared outwards in the same trade during the same period. ships cleared outwards for the ports of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Russia, was 1842, amounting to 267,579 tons, and The number employing 13,425 seamen. of British ships cleared outwards in the same trade for the same period was 1,023, amounting to 139,462 tons, and employing 7,656 men. These facts showed, that in the trade with the ports of the Baltic and of the North of Europe, we were not able to compete with the vessels of foreign shipowners. He saw that within the last three days another reciprocity treaty had been laid on the table of the House, formed with the Emperor of Austria. He would not, upon the present occasion, enter into the policy of that treaty; but this he would say, that it did appear to him most strange and incomprehensible that we should open all the various and numerous ports of the United Kingdom to a power which had only three ports in its dominions to which our ships went, Trieste, Venice, and Fiume. Venice, be it also recollected, was now a free port; and therefore to He Venice we should have had free access without any reciprocity treaty. The fact was, that owing to such impolitic regʊlations, the declension of our Shipping-ir terest was great and general, and he contended that upon investigation it would be proved to be so beyond all possibility of contradiction. It appeared from a petition which was now upon their Table, that in the port of Whitby, where in 1826 there had been eight ship-yards and seven graving-docks, and upwards of 1,000 men regularly employed, three of the former had been given up already, and two more were going to be abandoned; and that all the docks would be given up and the trade entirely relinquished, unless something were done for its relief by the Government. Let the House consider how the distress of the Shipping-interest affected the general interests of the country. It was not merely because our commercial greatness would pass away like an empty vision if the Shipping-interest of the country were ruined, that he called attention to this subject, but because it had a tendency to augment and aggravate the distress of every other interest in the community. The Shipping-interest gave occupation to many branches of industry: it consumed considerable quantities of various of our manufactures, and thus gave employment and subsistence to a vast portion of our labouring poor. He therefore contended, that it was well worthy of the attention of the House; and in spite of the various instances of refusal to enter into committees of inquiry which had occurred during the present Session, he hoped that the House would see that it was its duty not to continue in a blind adherence to a system which ought now at least to undergo examination, as all the predictions of its success had been completely falsified. We were at present pursuing a course which seemed likely to lead to great mischief; and he thought that the sooner we paused in our career, the better it would be for the country. It had been said, "What good will inquiry do?" He would answer that question by another—"Will it do any harm?" If the investigation for which the petitioners asked were granted, and it were proved in the course of it that the evils of which they complained were attributable to other causes from those which they imagined, they would see that those evils were inevitable from their situation, and would learn to bear them with patience and fortitude; but they would never be satisfied to be told without examination, and on the mere dicta of some official gentlemen, that the distress which overwhelmed them was at once inevitable and irremediable. The ship-owners had, in their general distress, a decided case against the vague representations which had been made of their prosperity, and there was also a prima facie case against these representations in the constant refusal of Government to grant any inquiry; for it was quite clear that if Ministers were convinced that an inquiry would bear out their representations, they would not have the slightest objection to grant it. He admitted that the present was too important a question to be thus incidentally introduced to the consideration of the House, but as his hon. friend, who presented the Petition, had no intention to follow it up by any motion, he, as a Shipowner, had felt himself induced to call attention to it. Whether his hon. friend intended at some future period to found a motion upon this Petition, he did not know; and being in that state of ignorance, he thought it right to state fairly, but without exaggeration, the distressed condition of the ship-owners, and to express a hope that the Government would look to it with all the attention which its importance required. He hoped that the reciprocity system would not be followed up by the formation of any more treaties with foreign powers, until the result of the treaties already made was more fully known. We had already gone far enough in that system; we ought to wait for the experience of a few years before we went further. If that experience should prove that the system was good, then we might proceed further; but till then the system ought not to be extended. The only parties who cooperated with us in that system were those small states which had every thing to gain and nothing to lose by it. Those great commercial nations, which by adopting the reciprocity system were most likely to conduce to our benefit, would have nothing to do with it; they determined to employ their own ships in their own trade, and instead of meeting us with concessions similar to our own, they rendered our access to their ports expensive by imposing high duties. He therefore thought that it was a question which Government ought to consider immediately, whether they could not alter for the better the present boasted reciprocity system. Mr William Duncombe said, that the object of this petition had been so fully and ably stated by the hon. and learned meniber for Hull, that he did not feel it necessary to say many words in support of it. But as he had presented petitions of a |