them both, and adopt that which seemed | cessary department. There was a Chairman best. He had after a minute examina- with a salary of 1,2007. a year, a Deputy tion, given the preference to the system chairman with a salary of 1,000l. and four recommended by Messrs. Brooksbank and Commissioners each having a salary of Belts, which had been in operation in 8007.; these officers costing the country all the public offices, with the exception annually 5,400l. If all the business were of the Navy-office, since the 1st of Ja- done by contract, he would venture to asnuary; and he was confident that at the sert that 70,000l. a year might be saved in close of the year the experiment, as to its this department alone. One provisionsuperior merits, would prove most satis- merchant in London passed more provisions factory. He would add, that this system through his warehouse at an expense of was formed on the basis of double entry, 3,000l. than the Government did at the the same as the other, and he believed expense of 100,0001. The Government would in its results be found more useful. should not manufacture a single article, Sir J. Wrottesley maintained, that in but should buy every thing in the market any department where, in the system of at the cheapest rate. keeping accounts, the journal was excluded, the proper and necessary check could not exist. Any private commercial establishment would be ruined in six months unless a journal were kept. By its use, the head of any department could tell every night and morning the whole sum received and expended in that department; and he could exercise an effectual control, with very little trouble on his part, over all the subordinate officers. Mr. Maberly inquired how it was, that the superannuation allowances had increased in this Estimate? If Sir G. Clerk said, that the increase arose in the following manner. The clerks on entering the different offices connected with the Navy were distributed among them according as they belonged to the inferior or the superior departments. they belonged to the inferior department, they received for the first three years only 907. a year. For every year they served afterwards they received an addition of 107. till they reached the maximum allow Mr. Hume agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that there would arise a fitter time than that for the discussion; but he wished then to remark, that he had for tenance of 3001. a year. Thus a clerk must years pressed the Government to introduce a simple system of keeping accounts, so that they might be understood by those who were as little familiar with accounts as the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to be. At length some attention had been paid to his recommendation, but not, he contended, in the best manner. Without the journal no effective check could exist. No private establishment could keep its accounts without it; the French Government had introduced it into use, and found it an admirable means of controlling its expenses. The Resolution agreed to. The next Resolution, for a sum of 38,2077. to defray the Salaries of Officers and other contingencies of the Victualling-office, called up have served twenty-three years before he could obtain 3007. a year in the inferior departments. A similar course was observed in the superior departments, where the maximum salary was about 500l. a year. The increase of the total sum allotted to superannuation arose from the great number of clerks who had been superannuated, but no increase had been made in the allowance of any one. The salaries were placed upon the present footing in the year 1806, at which time the clerks appeared to the House to be underpaid. The remuneration which they now received was not greater than their merits. He contended that the whole of the Victualling Board could not. be given up, even supposing that the Navy were in all cases to contract for stores and provisions it would still be wanting to superintend the distribution of stores at the different ports. He likewise pointed out the influence of the establishment at Deptford in lowering the tenders of the contractors, and stated that it had been found particularly useful in the years 1825 and 1826. Mr. Hume, who contended, that this was an unnecessary and expensive office. The Government should do every thing in this way by contract, as was the case in the Army. If the Victualling Board were to be kept up, one individual would be sufficient to manage it. At present it cost 48,000, and the Victualling-yards cost Sir J. Wrottesley said, that a large cap61,000l. making 109,000l. for this unne-ital had been expended in building mills and purchasing corn for the Government. He thought that, upon principle, such things could be best done by contract. If the contracts were improperly executed, had they not inspectors of contracts to compel their proper execution? If those inspectors passed bad flour, and that flour were afterwards complained of by the Naval officers to whom it was delivered, had not the Government the means of reprimanding and dismissing such inspectors? Had it not also the means of punishing contractors who committed frauds? Letting these matters, however, pass for the present, he would ask the hon. Baronet to inform him whether a regular mercantile book was kept on behalf of the Government, containing an account of the corn bought, the labour employed, and the flour delivered in his Majesty's yards? and whether to that account a per centage was added for the capital employed? Sir G. Clerk replied, that there was an exact debtor and creditor account kept of the corn bought and the flour manufactured, together with an account of the salary | paid to the Master, and all other contingent expenses. He added, that such a question ought not to be decided merely by pounds, shillings, and pence: it concerned the health and comfort of the seamen; and as long as there was any temptation to adulterate the material of biscuit, which was the case when it was supplied by contract, it was impossible to answer either for the health or the contentment of seamen. When the biscuits were manufactured in the public establishments the seamen knew that there was no temptation to adulterate it. good. It was impossible for Government to manufacture flour as cheaply at Deptford as individuals could procure it at present in the south of Ireland. That establishment was kept up as a mere pretext, and he was of opinion, that if due economy were used, this Victualling department might be reduced at least 50,000l. or 60,0007. Mr. Maberly was of opinion, even if meal were an exception to the general rule, that the present mode of supplying saltmeat to the navy was at once unnecessary, useless, and expensive. He had no doubt that all the manufacturing accounts of Government were losing accounts. The hon. Secretary at War had argued some time ago that we ought to keep up a manufactory for swords and cuirasses. He was certain that if the hon. Secretary were to go into the market he could purchase them at half the price which he was paying for their manufacture. Vote agreed to. The next Vote proposed was a grant of 137,4601. for the purpose of defraying the expense of the Salaries of Officers in the Dock-yards at home. Mr. Hume complained of the extravagant amount of this vote. Some years ago it was not more than 25,000l., now it was upwards of 130,000. He then objected to a charge of 7241. in the Deptford yard for rent and taxes paid to the Inspecting Agent of Transports. Now he thought that we had premises enough at Deptford, without going to the expense of hiring a house at such an enormous rent for any officer. Sir G. Clerk explained, that the sum included the rent of a wharf where transports were unloaded, which would not be a permanent charge. Mr. Hume said, it was highly wrong to insinuate that those who professed economy would run the risk of injuring the health of the seamen for the sake of a few Mr. Maberly wished to know whether pounds. They would do no such thing; they were to expect any large reduction in but Government might as easily secure these yards as to materials and to artificers. against adulteration when the biscuit was If he understood the evidence given by a supplied by contract as when it was made gallant Admiral before the Finance Comby its own servants. It must contract for mittee rightly, we should not require to wheat; and might it not be imposed on by have any more ships of the line built after bad wheat as well as by bad flour or bad the year 1830, and the yards would not be biscuit? What had been advanced did not wanted, except to put down some large convince him that the Government ought frigates to meet those which had been not to contract for the provisions of the lately built by America and France. We Navy. The ships of the East India Com-had now 350 ships of war, a larger number pany were supplied by contract, and when-than we could man within any short period ever any of the provisions so supplied were after the commencement of a war. Could found of inferior quality, the contractors we, therefore, be justified in keeping up were called upon to make the deficiency our enormous ship-building establishment and more were in progress. for ever? From the evidence given by Mr. Barrow, he thought that a very large saving, indeed, might be effected in this department, which had been as slovenly managed as any public department with which he was acquainted. From the conclusion of the war in 1815, the Admiralty had let the expense of this department go on without examination, until the year 1821. Then they found out that a reduction of 60,000l. might be made in it; but that beneficial discovery was not carried into effect till 1822. A gallant Admiral, for whom he felt sincere respect, had clearly intimated to the Finance Committee that he did not think that the Admiralty had done all which they could do in reducing the expenditure of this department, and had expressed an opinion that the Finance Committee should strengthen the hands of the Admiralty by giving an opinion to that effect. He was certain that if that gallant Admiral would apply himself to the examination of the different details of this Vote, he would be able to make a large re-led to much waste. Now the Admiralty had duction in this head of expenditure. Sir G. Cockburn complained, that the hon. member for Abingdon had misrepresented, though he believed very unintentionally, his evidence before the Finance Committee. He had said, that we had now a certain number of ships of the line, and that by 1830 all of these would In stating that, be in a complete state. he by no means meant to assert that all our naval force would by that time be coinplete for it happened that we were at present short of frigates. Besides, though we had 350 ships on the list, they were We must not all in an efficient state. keep up our naval establishment to a certain amount, in reference to the amount of other nations. He did not think that the hon. member for Montrose wished to put down the dock-yards entirely. had himself long been of opinion that the expense of the dock-yards might be reduced; indeed, he had been busily employed in effecting such a reduction. A proof of it might be seen in the single fact, that Government had within a few years reduced 500 salaried officers in the dockyards, whose salaries amounted to nearly 100,000l. a year, without at all injuring the efficiency of the yards. The state of those yards at present by no means answered the description of them at the time when Mr. Barrow gave his evidence. Many reductions had been made since that time, He The con Formerly in the dock-yards every one was allowed to take as many chips away as he could carry. sequence was, that half the time of the workinen was spent in making chips. Then the Admiralty came to the resolution of giving them an allowance in money instead of this permission, which necessarily taken away this allowance, with a view of keeping more of them employed. Besides, a reduction of expense in this department might be expected in the ordinary course of nature. The old shipwrights would every day be dying off, and it was not intended to take new ones in their places. Our dock-yard establishment, even as at present constituted, was lower than it was in 1803, when Earl St. Vincent reduced it, as some thought, below its proper standard. sooner. of Mr. Hume said, that he was glad to hear that we had now, in the fifteenth year peace, made those reductions which ought to have been made immediately on the It was, however, termination of the war. a severe reflection upon preceding administrations that they had not been made He wished to know whether there was to be any reduction in the scale of allowances paid to the Commissioner of the Dock-yard at Plymouth for example, who received 1,000l. a year; he had a Secretary who received 4507.; there were two Masterattendants who received between them 9501. a Master-shipwright who had 6507. a year, and various other officers. He wished to know if all these salaries were to be kept up. Sir G. Clerk said, that no alteration would be made in the scale of those allow ances. Some of the offices would be abolished, but the salaries of those which remained would continue unaltered. Vote then agreed to. The following Resolutions were also agreed to:-458,7201. for the Wages of Artificers and Labourers employed in the King's yards at home. 680,000l. for Timber and other materials. 75,000l. for Piloting and contingent expenses. Mr. Hume asked, whether it was the intention of Government to revise the bounty on slaves. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that, although this country was subject to great expense in order to suppress the Slave-trade, he thought it would be unwise to abandon that object suddenly. The subject, however, was under the consideration of Government. The following items were also voted without opposition:-66,4947., for the Salaries of Officers and Contingent Expenses of Foreign Yards. 61,0387., for the salaries Officers and Contingent Expenses of the victualling-yards. 64,0261. 6s. 7d., to defray the expense of the Salaries of Officers on the Naval Medical Establishment for 1830. 8457. 8s. 3d. to defray the Salaries and Expenses of the Officers of the Naval College, and the School for Naval Architecture, for 1830, induced Mr. Hume to say, that he approved of this Vote. He was glad to find that the young men now paid for their education. Formerly this establishment stood the country in 3,2451. a year, and it was now reduced to 8451. He thought that the Military College ought to be placed on the same footing. 105,000l. to defray the Salaries and Allowances of the Officers and Men on board Vessels in ordinary for 1830, and 27,8701. for defraying the expense of the Packet Service, for 1830, were all voted without remark. Sir G. Clerk, in moving for a sum of 854,000l. for defraying the Half-pay of Naval Officers, observed, that a regulation had lately been made, by which promotion in the Navy would be retarded, and by that means a great saving would be effected under this head. Mr. Hume said, that the regulation alluded to must be of very recent date, for he understood that two promotions had lately been granted at Plymouth, by the flag-officer, Lord Northesk. which they had been serving for three years to obtain. The Vote for 296,0631. for Superannuations and Pensions to Naval Officers, led Mr. Stanley to observe, that there was in one page a superannuation allowance of 4561. to Mr. W. Shield, and in the next page 500l. as a pension to Mr. W. Shield in the character of a Commissioner. He wished for some explanation. Sir G. Clerk answered, that this gentleman had served for a long time at Plymouth, at Woolwich, and Chatham, as Commissioner. His superannuation allowance was calculated on the time he had served, and the salary he had received in the civil office. Mr. Shield was upwards of seventy years of age, and had been for a long period in the active service of the Navy. His superannuation allowance amounted to 4661. or about 25s. a day. His pension was his half-pay. Mr. Hume said, nothing could be more preposterous than that an officer, living in a dock-yard, and possessing every comfort, should receive a salary of greater amount than if he were employed in serving his country abroad. Sir Byam Martin said, this individual received his superannuation allowance under an Act of Parliament-his half-pay was granted for forty years' service. Sir G. Cockburn observed, that it was not correct to say that those individuals got double what they would have done had they continued actively employed in the Navy. Had they remained in the naval service, they would now have been Admirals, with much larger allowances. Mr. Shield had been forty years in the naval service before he entered the civil service, in which he had been twenty years, and he was now nearly seventy years of age. 1,500l. to defray the Salaries of Chaplains in the naval service; and 270,000l. towards defraying the expense of the Outpensioners of Greenwich Hospital were also voted. Mr. J. E. Denison complained, that by the existing Act of Parliament, a marine, who entered the service at twenty years of age, was entitled to claim his discharge and pension after he had served twentyone years. Thus a perfectly healthy man Sir G. Cockburn observed, that the of forty-one might claim a salary of 187., noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty 251., 261. or 271., according to circumthought it was but fair towards those indi-stances. When such a man returned to viduals to grant them that promotion | his native village, he found his old com panions scarcely receiving for their laborious exertions as large an income as his retired allowance. Sir G. Cockburn said, the statement was true. A marine might obtain his discharge and a pension after twenty-one years service; but the pensions were under consideration. Some alteration would probably take place in the Act of Parliament to which the hon. Member had alluded. PENSIONS FOR THE HON. R. DUNDAS AND THE HON. W. L. BATHURST.] The Vote for the sum of 174,584l. 9s. 4d. to defray the Superannuations granted to Commissioners, Clerks, &c. formerly employed in the civil departments of the Navy, gave rise to the following debate. Then these pensions were created. They had heard much of the constant assiduity and labour which Ministers showed in considering what places and pensions could be abolished without detriment to the public service; and he for one acknowledged that he was somewhat astonished when he found that the amount of saving effected by all this anxiety was a little more than 1,000,000l. a year. If they were to rely only on the assiduity of Ministers to curtail the expenditure, he must say, that he thought the case desperate when he saw these pensions granted in the last year. In speaking of those pensions he knew very well that the sum of 900l. was a mere trifle in the expenditure of the country; but a grant, though small in amount, might be monstrous in principle. To those young gentlemen he imputed no blame; the blame must fall on the Ministers, and on two of them particularly-he meant the fathers of those individuals. It was well known that they were noblemen who for a great number of years occupied, with little intermission, some of the most important and lucrative situations in the Government. Viscount Melville, at the present moment, presided as First Lord of the Admiralty, and Earl Bathurst was now Lord President of the Council, one of the Tellers of the Exchequer, and Joint Clerk of the Crown. Their grandfathers were also men of high consideration. One of them for many years filled the situation of Lord High Chancellor of England, and the other was a sort of Viceroy of Scotland, holding places which produced great emoluments, and performing services which were rather equivocal. Now, that these gentlemen, gorged with the public money, should require for their families, or even condescend to accept such miserable pensions, and that too at a time of public distress, did appear to him, and he would not shrink from expressing his opinion, neither would he state it more harshly than the case required, but it did appear to him to be paltry. Though, abstractedly considered, these pensions might seem small, yet they appeared very large when they were com Sir R. Heron said, he hoped that, in proposing the Motion of which he had given notice, he should not be deemed to trespass improperly or unnecessarily on the time of the Committee, while he made a few observations. In the first place, he would say, it was not his fault that the Motion had not been brought forward at an earlier period. He had given many successive notices of his intention to bring the matter under consideration; but circumstances had prevented him from introducing it sooner. He considered the proposition which he was about to submit to the Committee as one of very considerable importance; but he feared that its consideration would not be enhanced in consequence of the subject being taken up by so humble an individual as himself. He observed in the Estimate which they were now called on to vote, the names of two individuals, the Hon. R. Dundas and the Hon. W. L. Bathurst, to the former of whom was granted a pension of 5007., and to the latter a pension of 4007., making a total charge of 9007. on the country. This charge he wished to have disallowed by the House. The former of those gentlemen was a reduced Commissioner of the Navy, the latter was a reduced Commissioner in the Victualling department. The column in which the time of service was usually marked was in those two instances left blank, and he concluded that this gave a very proper and significant de-pared with the remuneration of a vast scription of the services of those gentlemen, for if not nil, essential they certainly had not been. The situations appeared to have been created purposely for the parties; and shortly after they were appointed to them the offices were abolished. number of persons whose services had been most brilliant, and whose exertions had added to the greatness of the country. He would take the liberty of naming two of those individuals, and he had not the least hesitation in naming them, for they |