during the last year or two a market has been opened for them in Sweden, and it is necessary to pack the fish in a particular manner in this relation. Greater care must be taken with them. Large profits are realized out of this trade. Q. I always understood that there were large bodies of fish off the coast of Sweden; how happens it then that herrings are exported to that country?-A. This is a new market opened within the last year or two. Last year only one vessel went directly to Sweden, taking 900 barrels; but this year five have gone. Q. American vessels ?-A. Yes. Q. Has the herring fishery on the Swedish coast failed?-A. I pre sume so. Q. How has this market been opened; by treaty, or owing to the failure of the Swedish fisheries?-A. I understood the latter was the cause. The Norway fisheries have failed. Q. And this year five vessels have been fitted out for that country?— A. Yes; five, of 800 or 900 tons burden, and requiring some 8,000 or 9,000 barrels of herring. Q. Of course all these fish are packed in barrels ?-A. Yes. Q. Where do these barrels come from?—A. The United States. Q. The vessels bring the barrels with them?-A. The majority of them do so, a few may be purchased here, but they are brought chiefly from the United States in consequence of a superior make being required. A barrel larger than the ordinary size is needed. These hold from 220 to 240 pounds of fish, while the ordinary barrel only contains 200 pounds. Q. Where are these herring packed-on ship-board or on land?—A. Some are packed on land in the harbor; they land the barrels, having asked permission to do so, pack the fish at their leisure, and then take them off to the vessel. Q. Did they ask permission of you as collector of customs to land the barrels? They pay no duty on them ?-A. No. Q. As a matter of fact you let them land the barrels there, and some of them pack the fish there; at all events they take the barrels off to their vessels as they want them?-A. Yes. Q. What advantage do they say they derive from the privilege of landing those barrels ?-A. It gives them this advantage: unless they did so, they would have to bring other vessels to act as lighters. For instance, there was the Hattie H. Grove, of Gloucester, which required 3,000 barrels; these could not be coopered on the ordinary deck of a vessel and packed, so they land some 300 or 400 of the barrels on shore, and the others they put on board the vessel. Q. By placing the barrels on shore they save lighterage?-A. Yes; and pack them at their leisure, and take them off. Q. Saving lighterage?-A. Yes. Q. And a vessel catches more fish than if she had to carry the barrels?—A. You understand that these herring strike into the shore and they must be caught before spawning, when they are full. They strike in schools, as it is termed, and remain för one day, or perhaps for one or two days at intervals; there will perhaps not be more than two schools during the whole season. The consequence is that when the fish strike in the fishermen have to catch as many as possible to fill the empty barrels which are on shore-from 100 to 150. The fish are first salted, and when they have settled in the barrels, more fish are put in, and they are taken on board the vessel. If they were not packed the second time, when the vessels arrived in Sweden, the barrels would be onethird empty. Last year one vessel came and worked that way, not re packing, and putting the fish in the hold without letting them settle, and thus they lost a considerable amount of money. Q. Could that fishery now be carried on for the purpose of shipment to Sweden unless they had the privilege of landing?-A. It could be, if they had other vessels to assist them; if they had lighters chartered with that object in view. Q. This would add to the expense ?-A. Yes; one company had two vessels to carry the barrels and to pack the fish in, taking them from one vessel to the other; and of course this involved great expense. Q. How long is that ago?-A. It happened this season. One of the tenders was in charge of Captain Howe, who was pilot of the yacht which went out of port the other day. Q. Could they not have avoided that expense by landing the barrels? -A. Certainly, as to a portion of it. A part of the time would be employed taking fish. The crew fish, while the vessel is also used as a lighter. Q. What do the American captains say about the privilege of landing barrels -A. They have not said a great deal about it. Of course this is new trade, but if it was not an advantage they would not ask permission to land. Q. You have not thought of charging them a duty on the barrels ?— A. No; I have never done so. They asked permission and I allowed them to do so. This trade is only in its infancy, and different regulations respecting it may hereafter be made. I have reported the fact to the department, but I have not received any instructions this year with respect to it. Of course, strictly speaking, they should be subject to warehouse regulations. Q. Strictly speaking, what would be the result of this practice?-A. They would have to pay a duty of 17 per cent. on the cost of the barrels, and these are worth about $1 each in the United States, or they would have to pay for warehousing. This would, perhaps, cost a couple of hundred dollars. Warehouse rent with us varies from $50 to $200. Under this system the fish are packed at a very low rate. I am informed by the Americans themselves that they can sell them there at $2 a barrel when ready for market. Q. Will you tell me from the official record what has been the export of herring or other fish by Americans, for the different years that you have been at the port of Amherst, from 1854 up to the present time?— A. About 600,000 barrels have been entered outwards, and about one. half of the vessels that fish there won't report. I have no account of them. They fish outside. Q. Six hundred thousand barrels have been entered outward since 1854-A. Yes. Q. And only about one-half of the vessels that went out have reported-A. Yes; at least one-half, I might safely say, during that period did not report. They lay outside in the shore-over half a mile from the shore. Q. That would make over a million of barrels caught there?—A. Yes. Q. You would be safe in so calculating the catch? A. Yes. Q. What would they be worth in the American market?-A. We value them on board at $1 a barrel. Q. As they are caught?-A. Yes. They would be worth a great deal more in the United States. Q. Do the Americans come very largely to your neighborhood for bait -A. Yes; a great number come for it. Q. How do they get the bait?-A. Forty or fifty will come for it. Q. Inside of the three-mile limit?-A. The chief place for catching it is at Grand Entry Harbor. It is the nearest place for the fishermen who come from Cape North. It is at the east end of the island. They come into the harbor, anchor, and set their nets. Q. Do they set their nets on shore?-A. Yes. It does not take more than one or two days at the farthest to catch all the bait they require. This would be about 50 barrels. Q. They set the nets on shore?-A. Yes; in the lagoons. Q. Are the nets fastened to the shore?-A. Yes; to stakes placed in the ground. Q. Do you mean above high-water mark?-A. Yes; in the lagoons. Q. What is the rise and fall of the tide there?-A. About three feet. The lagoons of the islands have a strange formation. They run between two sand beaches, and a small channel lies between. In one large lagoon there is a distance of 20 miles between the beaches, and it is there where the bait is caught; sometimes also in Pleasant Bay. On first seining, bait will be taken from the seines. Q. Do they want this bait for codfishing?-A. Yes. Q. Could they carry on this fishing if they had not this privilege of securing bait?-A. If the fishermen have no bait they catch no fish. Q. If they had not this privilege for securing bait, they could not prosecute the codfishing?-A. They have this advantage: the place is so near, and they obtain ice at the same time. A portion of the island is of the red sandstone formation; the sea has made large holes of the nature of coves into it, and snow which has drifted and ice which has formed in these places in winter, are found there until the middle of summer. Q. They get the ice there in these coves?-A. Yes; and they also take bait in the vicinity. Q. Do they consider that this is a great privilege?-A. Of course. If they did not have it, they would have to purchase at the Strait of Canso. They cannot keep the bait without ice. Q. And here they procure it for nothing?—A. Yes. Q. And they cannot get it without landing?—A. No; they must land for it. Q. To what extent is the mackerel fishery prosecuted around these islands by these vessels ?-A. Sometimes we see a good many vessels around the islands, but they stay only for a very short time. The weather is so stormy that they cannot remain long. Q. How long does the mackerel fishing continue there?-A. These fish come in and spawn about the beginning of June. At that time they won't take the hook. They are blind and cannot see. They then leave and in about a month after spawning, they take the hook. This season they did so about the 6th of July. When they return, the scales are removed from their eyes and they then bite. Q. Do they first strike the shore in June before spawning ?—A. Yes; about the first of June. Q. And they are then blind?-A. Yes. Q. How long do they remain in that state?-A. Until after they spawn. They spawn in not more than five, six, or ten days at the farthest. We seldom have fishing for more than three nights afterwards, when they disappear again. They then come into deep water. Q. Do they come back again?-A. We catch them with the book again in July, from the 5th to the 6th, 8th, or 10th. This year I think it was until the 8th of July. Q. Are the Americans in the habit of fishing for them during the spawning season?-A. No. Q. The Americans do not fish for them in the month of June?-A. No; not at present. Formerly a few vessels did, but this has not been the case within the last few years. Q. The fish are not in good condition when they are caught before spawning time?-A. They are then poor mackerel, and only worth from $3 to $4 a barrel. They are what are called spring mackerel, and are intended for the West India market. Q. And in July ?--A. They commence to get fatter in July and August. Q. You say that they come on the 1st of June and spawn, and are blind at that time; where is their spawning ground?-A. They spawn in the gulf, around the Magdalen Islands, and on the Banks. I think they spawn all over the gulf where there are shoal spots. Q. Do they, to your certain knowledge, spawn on the Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes; certainly. Q. Have you observed them spawning yourself?-A. Yes. Q. They spawn on the bottom, do they not?-A. Yes. Q. Have you ever seen the spawn afterwards floating ?-A. The spawn does not float, but the milt from the male does, and the water becomes white. Q. Of course the ova are at the bottom?-A. Yes. Q. It does not float?-A. No. Q. You are quite sure that you have seen the milk floating?-A. Certainly. Q. Do they spawn in large numbers around the Magd alen Islands?A. It varies with the winds. These fish are entirely governed by the wind and weather. When a south west or westerly win d prevails they go into Pleasant Bay, in smooth water, and when the wind is opposite they go outside to spawn. The same rule holds good with the herring. These fish are at times so thick in the water at this season that you cannot cross the water where they are in a boat. Q. What is the depth of the lagoons?-A. From two feet to three or four feet. Narrow channels lie between their shores; at high water, the depth is about five feet. You cannot catch herring in quantities in the lagoons, where the bottom is not good. One of the lagoons extends for eight miles; and some of the land on the island is six hundred feet high. By Hon. Mr. Kellogg: Q. Do I understand you to say that the fish spawn all around these islands?-A. Yes. By Mr. Thomson : Q. Do the mackerel ever come into the lagoons of which you speak?— A. Not often; but sometimes they get a few of them there. Q. Since the Washington Treaty has been in operation have the Americans put up any establishments on shore?-A. Yes. Q. Where?-A. On Amherst Island. Q. Where is that?-A. It is the point nearest Prince Edward Island. Q. What kind of establishments have been put up?—A. Small fishing houses, and also a dwelling-house. Q. For what purpose?-A. To cure fish on shore. Q. What kind of fish ?-A. Mackerel and fat herring and cod. Q. Do they take many mackerel inside of the three mile limit?-A. Yes; the best fish are always inshore. Q. How have the Americans for years prosecuted this fishery ?—A. They stand in as near as possible to the beach and fish. Q. Do they then come to anchor?-A. They usually drift in the ordinary mode. Sometimes they anchor when they find the fish abundant; they frequently anchor with our boats on the fishing-grounds. Of course, when they see our boats fishing, they run in, and if they find good fishing, they anchor, or else they would be driven off shore again. Q. They do as it is proven they have done elsewhere-when they see our boats catching mackerel, they stand in and entice the fish out-do they not?-A. They did so, after the ratification of the Treaty of Washington and after the Treaty of 1854 was made. At all times they have fished so close to the shore that it is dangerous for the vessels to remain there. Q. Then do they send boats in ?-A. They generally have only one boat; but I have known them to hire boats at the island, and fish inshore. Q. At what time-during the Reciprocity Treaty, or since?-A. During the treaty. Q. Have they done so since ?-A. Yes. Q. Were they in the habit of doing so since the Reciprocity Treaty expired in 1866?—A. We have not seen many American vessels there since that treaty expired-not as many as was the case formerly. Q. Have they continued the same mode of fishing since the Reciprocity Treaty expired in 1866 ?-A. Yes. Q. Is there any mackerel fishing at all outside the three-mile limit?— A. There is occasionally; but it is not so good there as it is inside this limit. Q. From your knowledge of the mackerel fishery there, would it be possible in your opinion for the Americans to prosecute this fishery unless they could get inshore, within the three-mile limit?-A. I suppose that they could, but not with the same advantage as they could otherwise, by a great deal. Q. But they could not make successful voyages unless they could come within this limit?-A. They could not then fish successfully. I do not think it would be worth their while to come here if they were deprived of that advantage. Q. You are aware that the Americans, under the Convention of 1818, had the right to fish on the shores of the Magdalen Islands, although they could not land there?—A. Yes, I always understood so. Q. Suppose that they only exercised this right and did not land—if they were not permitted to land and fish inshore, and if they could not also fish inshore on the coasts of Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, and New Brunswick, could they then, in your judgment, successfully prosecute this fishery?-A. You mean on the outshore grounds? Q. Yes.-A. I do not think so. Q. Suppose that the Americans were confined entirely to the body of the gulf, with the privilege besides of fishing inside at the Magdalen Islands, do you think that they could then successfully prosecute the mackerel fishery?-A. No, I do not; because the gulf is generally so rough that they require the inshore fisheries to anchor their vessels in; they might catch fish outside the three-mile limit, but they could not secure a great quantity. They require the shore to come in, anchor, |