Query.-Would not the making of Upper Canada College amenable to the Grammar School Act, have the effect of concentrating the attention of the Masters on Pupils of Grammar School age?

Answer. Certainly, the same as the attention of the Masters of any other Grammar Schools of the Province

Query.-Would it not be desirable to use the same Text Books in Upper Canada College and the Collegiate Institutes, as in the Grammar Schools?

Answer. I think so,--and for this reason, that the Text Books in use in the Grammar Schools have been selected by the most competent persons in the Country. I have personally had nothing to do with the selection of those Text Books. It has been done by what is called the Text Book Committee of the Council of Public Instruction, with the counsel and advice, or suggestions of other qualified persons. Of that It Committee, Doctor McCaul, the President of University College is the Chairman. also includes Doctor Ormiston, Dean Grasset, and Doctor Barclay, and in preparing both the Course of Instruction for the Grammar Schools, and the list of Text Books to be used in the Grammar Schools, they examined various Text Books which were furnished to them, and had also the benefit of the suggestions of the Reverend G. P. Young, the Inspector of the Grammar Schools, and Mr. William Tassie, Head Master of the Galt Grammar School. It was under such favourable circumstances that the Course of Study, extending over five years, was prescribed, and the Text Books to be used in that Course of Study selected by them. I think such a Committee are much more competent to determine the Course of Study, and the Text Books to be used in the prosecution of that Course of Study, than the individual Principal of Upper Canada College can be. Therefore, I think that the same Text Books ought to be used in Upper Canada College that are used in the Grammar Schools. And as regards the Exhibitions, Doctor McCaul has stated that, in former times, the Candidates for Exhibitions, who were taught in the Grammar Schools, laboured under great disadvantage when they came up to Upper Canada College, the Pupils of which had used the Eton Latin Grammar, while they had learned the English Rules. A similar disadvantage exists now, as the subjects of Examination for the Exhibitions relate to the Text Books used in Upper Canada College ;and when Boys from the Grammar Schools gain Exhibitions in so disadvantageous a competition, it is all the more honourable to the Schools from which they come, and to the Masters under whose direction they have been, as well as to the Pupils themselves. Under the present system, there is no basis for a comparison between Upper Canada College and the Grammar Schools. You have a five years' Course of Study in the Grammar Schools, and five, or six, Forms in Upper Canada College. But, if you wish to compare a Boy of the first, or second, year in a Grammar School, with a Boy of the first, or second, Form in Upper Canada College, you cannot do it. The Course of Study is not the same, the Text Books are not the same, some of the subjects are not the same. The terms of comparison are wanting, and, therefore, it is not possible to compare the efficiency of any Grammar School in the Country with the efficiency of Upper Canada College, unless it be from. the result in obtaining Scholarships. And when we consider that Upper Canada College receives more than a great many of the Grammar Schools, it is a wonderful thing in my estimation that, as stated by the President of University College the other day, the Grammar Schools should win one-half of the Honours and Scholarships as against Upper Canada College. It is like one man beating twenty men; because Upper Canada College receives perhaps twenty times as much as a Grammar School; and yet that Grammar School, in half the instances, beats Upper Canada College in the competition, according to the statement made to this Committee the other day. I think the fact is highly honourable to the Grammar Schools; and if the same Course of Study were pursued, and the same Text Books used, the advantage, I think, would be still greater on the side of the Grammar Schools. And I see no reason why one single Grammar School in the Country should use Text Books not used in the others, thereby breaking up the

harmony and unity of the system. I think, when the learned Gentlemen I have alluded to, have selected these Text Books, and prescribed this Course of Study, it would have been for the benefit of the Country at large that their recommendations should have been respected in Upper Canada College, and that this would tend to make Upper Canada College more efficient. As the Examinations and the very Forms of the questions are based on the Text Books, it would be more creditable to Upper Canada College, and more beneficial to Grammar School instruction generally, if the same Text Books and subjects of Examination were prescribed. I am sure the President of University College would bear me out that I have not dictated in any way to the Members of the Council of Public Instruction with regard to these matters,-that I have adopted their opinions, and that there has been unity in the Council. I have said to them.-"You are more competent than I am to deal with these matters; you have had more experience than I have had; I will simply record your views, and carry them out to the best of my ability." And I think, when Upper Canada College is endowed for Grammar School purposes, and Grammar Schools for the same purposes, that in all fairness and justice to the Grammar Schools generally, Upper Canada College should be made to do the same work, and in the same way, that they do. When Grammar Schools, on an average, receive $500, or $600, while the Endowment of Upper Canada College, according to the returns, I believe is some twenty times one of those sums; and when we know that money is the sinews of war, and when we consider the great ability of the Masters, it is clear, I think, that the Grammar Schools have no fair chance in the competition.

Query by the Chairman.-There are 104 Grammar Schools in the Country. What is the grant to those 104 Grammar Schools?

Answer. Last year it was $53,691.

Query.-And Upper Canada College has an Endowment, it is stated, of $12,500,— the amounts in this case and in the case of the Grammar Schools being exclusive of Fees. What is the proportion of Matriculants at the University from Upper Canada College?

Answer. I have not the least idea. I was referring to the statement of Doctor McCaul the other day, when he said that half the Honours and Scholarships were taken by Boys from the Grammar Schools.

(The Reverend Doctor McCaul here remarked, in explanation, that what he had said, was "half the Honours.")

The Reverend Doctor Ryerson asked to be permitted to make an addition to his previous answer, as follows:-I said that Upper Canada College receives twenty times as much as one of the Grammar Schools. There are 104 Grammar Schools. The Public Grant to them is $53,000. Divide that by 104, and you have, as the average allowance to the Grammar Schools, a little over $500 to each,-and I believe the Endowment of Upper Canada College is twenty times that much. I assign that as a justification of my remarks.

Query. Well, we want to see the work that is done. The Grammar Schools get $53,691, and send,-how many Pupils to the University? What is the average attendance at the Grammar Schools?

Answer. According to the latest Returns in my hand the number is 5,696. That is the number of those who are admitted on the Examination of the Inspector. I did not say what proportion of Pupils the Grammar Schools send to the University. I do not know anything about that. I was speaking of the Honours in the University, not the numbers. Doctor McCaul stated the other day, and it made a strong impression on my mind, that one-half the Honours were won by the Boys from the Grammar Schools as against Upper Canada College; and, of course, this was done by the Grammar Schools, not working jointly, but working separately and individually.

Query. Then the 5,700 Pupils of the Grammar Schools take as many Honours as the 229 Pupils of Upper Canada College?

Query by Mr. McDougall.-And the $53,000 to the Grammar Schools give as many Pupils to the University as to the $12,500 to Upper Canada College?

Query by the Chairman.-Suppose that by the use of particular Text Books a Boy qualifies himself for admission to the University, and Upper Canada College sends so many to the University who are successful, does not indicate that the Text Books and the teaching in Upper Canada College must be beneficial?

Answer. I do not think the results of the Examinations in the higher subjects depend so much on the Text Books as those of the Examinations in the lower subjects. I was referring to competing for Exhibitions. When it comes to the higher subjects, I do not know that the use of particular Text Books is material. At the same time, I know that if the Text Books selected by such Gentlemen as I have named are good for the Grammar Schools generally, they ought to be good for Upper Canada College also.

Query by Mr. Cumberland.-When were these Text Books adopted?

Answer. They were selected many years ago.

Query. When was the present list of Text Books revised?

Answer. Two years ago.

Query. Could you, from memory, say whether there are any, and if so, how many of these Text Books of which the Teachers in the Normal School, or the Officers of the Education Department, are Authors? Are there any?

Answer.-Only one, or two. Doctor Sangster is the Author of the Arithmetic and the Algebra used, but there is an option as to the Algebra.

Query. Are there any others?

Answer. Not that I am aware of.

Query. Is there in Geography?

Answer.

Geographies.

That is in the Common Schools. The Grammar Schools have Classical

Query. Are you aware whether these Text Books for the Grammar Schools were adopted with any special reference to the Matriculation Examination of any University?

Answer. Certainly; for the Grammar School Law prescribes that the Course of Study shall be with a view to matriculation in the University of Toronto, and not any other University. And the Grammar School Course, whatever one's opinion may be in regard to it, has been framed with special reference to that.

Query. I understand you to intimate that the Grammar Schools were efficient, or ought to be efficient feeders to a University. If that is so, what were your reasons for recommending the establishment of Collegiate Institutes?

Answer. For this reason, and a very good reason, which, I think, was assigned by the President of University College the other day, that, in the infant state of the Country, and with their very limited means of support, you cannot expect that all the Grammar Schools can be equally efficient. In the scheme of Collegiate Institutes, it is designed to give encouragement to those places where there is local enterprize and intelligence, and liberality sufficient to erect the Buildings, and to provide Masters to the number of four, of sufficient merit and reputation to gather Pupils round them,Boys engaged in Classical Studies to the number of 70. Under such circumstances, it is proposed that the liberality of the City, or Town, where such an Institution may be established, shall receive further encouragement, and by such a union of ability and means, of course more efficient Institutions would be established.

Query. In your opinion, does Upper Canada College represent something like what you propose?

Answer.-Yes; I have not intimated at all that I think the Endowment of Upper Canada College should be withdrawn.

Query. I was not asking you that. I understand you to say that, in your opinion, Upper Canada College is similar to your proposed Collegiate Institutes?

Answer. Yes.

Query. Then, if so, the Collegiate Institutes that you have proposed are not intended to supply something not now existing?

Answer. I did not intend to convey the idea that these Institutes will supply what does not now exist. They would supply more efficiently the instruction which is now given in a more imperfect degree in the feebler Institutions. I hold out the System of these Collegiate Institutes as an encouragement to local enterprize; so that a Town like Galt, or any similar place, if it erects the necessary Buildings, will receive sufficient encouragement to enable it to have an Institution with four Masters, and Classical Pupils to the number of seventy. I look to these Collegiate Institutes as being ultimately local Colleges in the different parts of the Country.

Query by Mr. Christie.-If Upper Canada College were transferred to the control of the Education Department, would it be necessary to provide additional machinery for the administration of its affairs?

Answer. I do not know that any improvement could be made in transferring the control. I referred simply to the Laws, Regulations and Instructions of the Course of Study.

Query.-Would not a very material saving be effected by such a transfer?

Answer. I cannot say. If I had anything to do with the Department, I should be sorry to undertake to manage more than I have.

Query.-Would not the Endowment be thus relieved of a large expense at present incurred in the management of the Bursar's Office?

Answer. I am sure a business man has more idea of that than I have. Perhaps I may be allowed to say that I should be sorry indeed.-and always opposed the proposition, that the Council of Public Instruction should have the control and management of any property at all. All they have to do is with instruction and not with property. We might, perhaps, manage matters even worse than others. Query.-Who should have the management?

Answer. I think you are more competent to judge of that than I am. I think there was formerly a Board. There is a Committee appointed by the Senate. I do not know anything defective in their management.

Query. Mr. Cockburn in his statement, calculates that out of the Annual Revenue arising to Upper Canada College from the Endowment, and amounting to $12,500, but $9,000 is actually available for the purposes of Education. Now, would not the transfer of that Endowment to the management of the Crown Lands Department, and the transfer of the Permanent Fund to the management of the Provincial Treasurer, render available for Grammar School purposes a much larger proportion of the nominal Revenue than the amount above stated?

Answer. If it were managed by the Crown Lands Department without expense, I suppose there would be a saving; but I cannot be a judge of that.

Query.-Does not the practice of paying to Upper Canada College a very large sum of public money, irrespective of the attendance or work done, exert an unfair discrimination in favour of that Institution as against the other Grammar Schools of the Province ?

Answer. I think it does. The President of University College stated the other day that he would not be willing to submit to interference in the examination of his Pupils by another. The reason of the Examination, in regard to Grammar Schools, is that the aid depends on the number of Pupils; and hence Trustees and Masters are found to admit into the Schools Pupils who are not qualified, simply in order to increase the proportion of the Grant. If the Grammar School Fund were distributed on another principle than one of average attendance, every Master might examine his Pupils, but when the allowance depends on the number of Pupils, it becomes necessary to have an authority to examine the Pupils, and that authority had been transferred to the Inspector of Grammar Schools. This had very much increased his duties, as well as responsibility. For this reason, Masters were incompetent to examine and admit Pupils

into their own Schools. Upper Canada College receives its Endowment independent of attendance, and no other Grammar School in the Country does so.

Query. Provided the total grant to Toronto from the Grammar School Fund were proportionate to the total number of fully admitted Grammar School Pupils, would it not be competent for the County Grammar School Trustees to determine whether all their Boys should be taught in the same School, or in two buildings remote from each other?

Answer. I suppose so.

Query by the Chairman.-The meaning of the question is, would the Grammar School Trustees have the power of having two Grammar Schools?

Answer. Not under the present Grammar School Act, unless with the sanction of the County Council. Then power is limited by the resources of the Grammar School Fund.

Query by Mr. Coyne.-Does any reason occur to you as sufficient why Upper Canada College should be exempted from the system of inspection pursued in regard to other Grammar Schools?

Answer. No. I may remark that the Principal of Upper Canada College objected to the inspection of Upper Canada College, because there is a Committee of revision, or oversight. It will occur to the Principal that there is a great difference between the oversight of a Body and inspection. The former would have regard to the management of the Institution, and the latter would ascertain its teaching results, as compared with other Institutions.

Query by Mr. Rykert.-Is it examined?

Answer. I never heard of it; and looking at the Gentlemen on the Committee, I should say there were no Examiners. An ability for Examination implies practice in teaching.

Query by Mr. Christie.-Would it, in your opinion, be more derogatory to Upper Canada College than to any other Grammar School to be placed under such a system of inspection?

Answer.-No. The Inspector of Grammar Schools is the ablest man and the most competent to do the work to be found in the Country. It would not be derogatory to any Institution to be inspected by a Gentleman like Professor Young, or Mr. Mackenzie, the latter being a Gold Medallist of old King's College, and holding a high reputation as a Teacher.

Query.-Are the qualifications of the Masters of Upper Canada College, so far as they have fallen under your cognizance, sufficient to create in their favour a special exemption from the supervision applied to other Grammar School Masters?

Answer. I do not pretend to judge of the qualifications of the Masters of Upper Canada College. I do not think the inspection of the Institution to be determined by the qualifications of its Masters at all. The inspection is to satisfy the public as to the work done, its nature and extent. In England, the Government Inspectors do not abstain from inspecting one School and inspect another, because they think the Master of the one more competent than the other.

Query. Are not many of our Grammar Schools largely attended by Pupils from distant parts of the Province ?

Answer. Some of them,-a few of them.

Query.-Would they, on that ground, be correctly designated as Provincial Insti

tutions?

Answer. In one sense they are Provincial, because they contribute to Provincial interests; but not in another sense, because they are under local management. They are public Institutions, inasmuch as they contribute to the general sum of public Education and intelligence.

Query. You are a member of the University Senate.
Answer.-Yes, but I have not attended for years.