Answer. I did not propose to raise the standard. But I proposed to make it a Training School for the Country, and that £1,000 should go to it for that purpose, and that Upper Canada College should be a College, or Normal Training School, in which the Grammar Schools of the Country should be engrafted.

Query. At that time, you did not consider the administration of Upper Canada College extravagant?

Answer. I thought nothing about it at all. I proposed a new System. If I had the least idea that these questions would have come up, I would have examined the papers, but I have not thought of them for a number of years. If I had examined them, I could have given more explicit answers.

Query by Mr. McDougall.-Do you suppose that the principal aim of the Grammar Schools,-particularly in connection with the proposed change to High Schools,should be, preparing Boys for the University?

Answer.-No. I did think that the Grammar Schools were more numerous than the wants of the Country required for Classical instruction. And I thought that the Act of 1865 would reduce the number of Schools, and add to the efficiency of those which remained. That was my expectation. But it was not fulfilled. The weaker Schools, which I supposed would be closed up, held on with surprising tenacity. My intention was to make them strictly Classical Schools; but I could not succeed. They then reduced and impaired the efficiency and standing of the Grammar Schools by the introduction of a large number of Girls, to study Classics, in order to swell the attendance, and thereby obtain larger means of support. The effect of this was the introduction of the new Grammar School Bill. The Schools are now High English, as well as Classical Schools, and, in order to have strictly, and, to a certain extent, exclusively Classical Schools, I proposed the establishment of the Collegiate Institutes. I found that the Classical wants of the Country were not commensurate with the number of Grammar Schools. I did suppose that the Trustees would establish High English Schools in the different Towns and Cities of Canada, as in the United States. But they did not do so, and we were not able to bring sufficient influence to bear to induce them to do so. Query. Did you not expect these Collegiate Institutes to be useful to a great extent in giving preparatory education for the University to Boys who did not live in one place?

Answer. I think so. Boys intended for the University have facilities at Upper Canada College. And this brings up another point, namely, that I think they should have a good Common School Education before commencing their Classical Education. In the last Report of the Royal Commission, in the instruction of the middle classes, they express an opinion which I will read. This Report is signed by such men as Lord Taunton, Lord Lyttleton, Doctor Hook, Doctor Temple, A. W. Thorold, F. Dyke Acland, junior, E. Baines, W. E. Forster, P. Erle, and John Stoorar. The Report says: "The best mode of dealing with Latin is probably not far from that suggested by Mr. Fearon. If Boys were not allowed to begin Latin till the elements of an English Education were thoroughly secured, for instance until they were capable of passing the highest standard of the Committee of the Council of Education,"-this, they suggest, would be a great improvement. I believe if you take two Boys of eight years of age, and give them School instruction until they are sixteen, and take one of them, and require him to learn the elements of English for four years, until he had reached twelve, and let the last four years be devotel exclusively to Classical study, he would be a better Classical and better English scholar than the other; and by pursuing that course you would give all the youth of the Country, whether classically educated or not, provision for a good Common School Education.

Query by Mr. Coyne.-That paper in your hand purports to be from Upper Canada College, and gives the course of instruction there. Look at that for the first Form, is the qualification there as high as is required for the Grammar Schools of the Country? Answer. I do not think it is; but Professor Young could tell better than I could.

Query. Is that your opinion?

Answer. I think it is, although not quite. I agree entirely with what Doctor McCaul said, that when Boys were commencing Classics, it was very necessary they should be placed under competent Teachers.

Query. As to Mr. Cumberland's question about making Upper Canada College the Model Grammar School of the Country, would that not necessitate raising the standard of entrance for Students of that Institution?

Answer.-Yes.

Query by Mr. Cumberland.-As to the Grants and cost, would you look at the Returns for 1861-62, and see if $6,000 a year was not the amount of the Grant to the Model Grammar School ?

Answer. Yes, it was.

Query. Do you find that to be independent of all paid to Inspectors?

Answer. It is so stated in the Book.

Query. The fact is, is it not, that the number of Pupils in that School being limited to 100, and the Grant being $6,000, the average cost of each Pupil was $60 per annum?

Answer. But that School was intended to be a Training School for the Country. Query by the Chairman.-Is the expense of managing the Education Department at all increased by the Grammar School System?

Answer. The work of it is very much increased, for we have to keep all the Accounts. I cannot say the expense has increased; I cannot say what reduction of work would be made in the Department if we had not the Grammar School System to manage; the Department has charge of all the Correspondence with the Municipalities regarding the System; has the receiving of the Reports of Inspectors and Trustees; has the examination of all the Accounts; has to see the Public Grant properly appropriated, and a great deal of work altogether.

Query. The sum of $53,000 granted by the public to the Grammar Schools is a Grant paid in money?

Answer.-Yes.

Query.—It does not include that portion of the Annual Grant which is for Library purposes, etcetera ?

Answer.-No.

Query. In estimating the cost to the Country of each Grammar School Pupil there are then other expenses than those named by you at first to be taken into account? Answer. Yes. There is the proportional expense of the Education Department which I have mentioned.

Mr. Lauder moved, that all Correspondence between the Government and the Chief Superintendent of Education, relating to the abolition of the Model Grammar School, be submitted to this Committee. (Carried).

NOTE. The Committee then adjourned, and reported its proceedings to the House of Assembly, and on the 22nd of January, 1869, presented its First Report on the Education Department.

CHAPTER II.

REPORT ON THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT BY A SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO, 1869.

NOTE. At the request of the Chief Superintendent of Education, a large Committee of twenty-three, out of eighty-two Members of the Legislative Assembly, was appointed to consider the suggestions which he had submitted in his two last official Reports, respecting certain amendments to the Grammar and Common School Laws; also to inquire ito the management and working of the Education Department.

Various attacks and imputations have been made in past years against the Chief Superintendent and others in the management of the Department, and he was anxious, before retiring from its administration, that the most thorough investigation should be made into the working of the Department by Representatives of the people. The Leaders of both parties in the Assembly agreed to the selection and appointment of a large Select Committee from both sides of the House, and on the 16th of November, on motion of the Honourable Attorney General Macdonald, a Select Committee was appointed to examine into the working of the Common and Grammar School System of Ontario, together with the Department of Public Instruction.

The following is the Report of that Committee which was ordered to be printed by the Legislative Assembly the day before the close of the Session. This Report is an ample vindication of the Chief Superintendent, and all who have assisted him, from the imputations made upon them by a portion of the public press and other parties; it is an unquestionable testimony of the fidelity, efficiency and economy with which the Department of Public Instruction has been conducted in its various branches and details.

TO THE HONOURABLE THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, ONTARIO.

The Select Committee appointed to examine into the working of the Common and Grammar School System of Ontario, together with the Department of Public Instruction, beg leave to present their Report: :

Your Committee have considered the provisions of the Law respecting Common and Grammar Schools, and adopted certain Resolutions for the amendment thereof, which have been embodied in Bills numbers 119 and 129, now before Your Honourable House.

Some progress has been made in investigating the management and usefulness of Upper Canada College, but owing to the lateness of the Session and the number of Persons to be examined, and documents to be considered, the Committee will not be able to report thereon this Session. They have also procured Returns and other useful information, which have been printed under the Order of Your Honourable House for the use of Members.

The Committee visited the Education Office and examined the system of management pursued there, and appointed a sub-Committee for the more careful and extended investigation of that department of the Educational System. The result of the labour of that sub-Committee is embodied in their Report, as adopted and approved by your Committee, and herewith submitted.

Your Committee have to congratulate the Country upon the extent and efficiency of its Educational System, brought to its present state of usefulness mainly by the indefatigable exertions of the able and venerable Chief Superintendent of Education, the Reverend Doctor Ryerson, seconded by the Council of Public Instruction, and a most efficient staff of Officers, together with the liberal provision made by the Representatives of the people for the support of Education in all its branches.

Your Committee are also much indebted to the Chief Superintendent for the great assistance given to the Committee by him in pursuing their inquiries; and it is matter of regret to the Committee, that the time at their disposal, owing to the many calls upon its Members in the discharge of other legislative duties, has prevented the preparation of an extended Report upon the subjects embraced in their enquiries.

TORONTO, January 19th, 1869.

M. C. CAMERON, Chairman.

REPORT OF THE SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT AND DEPOSITORY.

To the Chairman of the Educational Committee:

The sub-Committee appointed to examine into the internal management of the Education Department, report:

That in undertaking the duties assigned to them, they first determined to make a thorough examination into the mode of conducting the Financial Branch.

Your Committee find that the system adopted by the Department is of so thorough and complete a character, that no funds can by any possibility be received without being checked by proper Officers, whose several duties require them to make entries in various Books, through which every item can readily be traced.

They find that all moneys received by the Department are regularly deposited to the credit of the Government, with the exception of moneys intended to be disbursed in the purchase of articles outside of the Institution [Trustees' School Seals merely], and that all Expenditures are made by Cheque, properly countersigned by the different Heads of the Department to which they respectively belong.

They find that a perfect system of registration of every Communication received by the Department is maintained, by means of which the several Officers to whose department the Communication has reference, are immediately apprized of the contents, and answers are promptly returned to the same.

Your Committee have also made a thorough investigation of the Depository Branch, and find that the existing arrangements for purchasing Stock are satisfactory and well fitted for securing the same on the most favourable terms. The mode of disposing of the Books is equally satisfactory.

Your Committee find that the amount yearly received by the Department from the Municipalities for Books, Maps, etcetera, is very considerable, amounting in 1868 to $20,004.20, which sum is paid directly into the Public Treasury, and should be regarded as an offset against the amount granted to the Department.

In connection with this subject, your Committee submit the following statement, showing the cost of Books, Maps, etcetera, and the amount received for the same from 1850 to 1867, inclusive. Also the amount received from the Government on account thereof, videlicet: :

Total amount paid for Books, Maps, etcetera, imported
from 1850 to 1867, was

Purchases in Montreal

Articles manufactured, or purchased, in Toronto

$271,869 52

3,990 06

93,146 88

$369,006 46

Freight, Agency, Packing, Printing, Insurance, Salaries
and Expenses

73,600 19

$442,606 65

Value of Books dispatched to Libraries, including the

100 per cent. granted

$123.298 97

Maps, Prizes, etcetera

213,993 78

Maps sold, without grant, (Text Books), etcetera

82,182 59

$419,475 34

We get the amount of articles dispatched over and above what was paid for.
Taking then the Grants

And deducting proportion of goods

$187,139 79

168,646 37

$18,493 42

Leaves a balance of

Which amount is fully covered by the Stock on hand.
The above is exclusive of the transactions of 1868.

Your Committee in making their investigation have noticed that a considerable amount of extra labour has been performed in the Depository and other departments by Messieurs Hodgins, Marling, and Taylor, to whose energies and abilities in a great measure the Department is indebted for its present state of efficiency.

The services rendered by these Gentlemen, outside of their ordinary business, and during extra hours, has hitherto rendered unnecessary the employment of additional assistance; and having performed these duties for nearly five years, your Committee regret the reduction which has been made in the amount of their emoluments, without relieving them of their extra duties, the result of which will in all probability be an increased expenditure in the shape of additional Clerks.

Among other things, the printing of the Establishment came under review of your Committee, and they call attention to the fact, that the prices charged by the Queen's Printer are in excess of those formerly paid; for instance,—

Your Committee have collected a complete set of the Forms and Papers used in the Department, which they submit for your inspection.

Your Committee have great pleasure in reporting, that the internal management of the Education Department is most satisfactory.

In conclusion, they would recommend that there be a yearly audit of the Books of the Department.

TORONTO, January, 1869.

J. MCMURRICH, Chairman of the Sub-Committee.

THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE AND DOCTOR RYERSON-REPLY TO THE EDITOR OF The Globe.

My attention has been called to a lengthened Editorial of The Globe of the 26th instant, headed "The Education Committee," in which, after sundry criticism on the proceedings of that Select Committee of the Legislative Assembly, Grammar School Masters, etcetera, you make certain statements respecting myself. . There are two statements in your article which 1 think proper to notice.

*NOTE.

The Queen's Printer contractors in their explanatory Report to the Honourable the Attorney General Macdonald, on these charges, conclude as follows:

"We must acknowledge, however, that we are somewhat surprised that the difference in favour of our Contract, admitted by all practical printers to be an exceedingly low one, is not greater than it is: and it is quite evident, after a careful examination of the Accounts attached to Mr. Hodgins' Report. [to the Chief Superintendent on the Queen's Printer's Account for November and December, 1868], that the printing of the Education Department has been most economically managed "