1. You represent the expenditure in support of the Model Grammar School as "the Grammar School Teachers' Money." In reply, I have to state that not one farthing of that Expenditure comes from the Grammar School Fund. When I obtained the grant of $4,000 per annum for the establishment and support of the Model Grammar School, I obtained, at the same time, a large additional Grant to the Grammar School Fund, which I could not have obtained under other circumstances; and any additional public aid obtained for the Model Grammar School was granted by Order of the Governor-General-in-Council out of the School Library and Apparatus Fund, which had accumulated to nearly $50,000, and which was not required, and could not, at that time, be expended according to Law for School Libraries, Maps and Apparatus. There was also a propriety in this appropriation from the fact, that the Building for the Model Grammar School, included the accommodations for the Normal School for the training of Common School Teachers, and the whole Building is now used for Common School purposes. But it is worthy of note, that, whether much, or little, was expended for the Model Grammar School, more than one-eighth of the entire sum, including the erection of the Building, was expended on Mr. G. R. R. Cockburn (present Principal of Upper Canada College), as Rector, Inspector, etcetera. You state that the debt of the Model Grammar School has increased in 1861 to $14,139, including the Building itself for the Normal School and Model Grammar School. That was the precise juncture at which Mr. Cockburn ceased to be connected with the School. But subsequently there was no increase of debt in the Model Grammar School, during the last year of its continuance. I may next Session lay before the Upper Canada College Committee of the Legislative Assembly official Correspondence respecting the dincontinuance of the Model Grammar School. When I took charge of the Grammar School Income Fund, fifteen years ago, it amounted to about twenty-five thousand dollars per annum. I have nursed it with much more care than I have my own private income, and have lost no opportunity of getting additions to it, until in 1867, it amounted to $55,046.

The first day of my appearing before the Education Committee, (on the Common and Grammar School Bills), I stated to the Committee that I did not wish to take any part in the Upper Canada College Question, that I did not desire the disendowment of the College, whatever reforms, or improvements might be made in its operations.

But as I understand that Mr. Christie intends to renew the inquiry into Upper Canada College affairs next Session of Parliament, I shall be prepared, if spared, to supplement my evidence by giving all the correspondence respecting Mr. Cockburn's appointment, and of his coming to this Country as Rector of the Model Grammar School and of the joint communication of the Vice Chancellor of the Toronto University and myself respecting the proper functions and duties of Upper Canada College.

TORONTO, January 29th, 1869.

EGERTON RYERSON.

CHAPTER III.

DEBATE IN THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY ON THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE LEGISLATIVE GRANT TO THE DENOMINATIONAL COLLEGES, 1868, 1869.

On the 21st of February, 1868, the House of Assembly received a Message from the Lieutenant Governor, to the effect that, while the ordinary Year's Grant to the Colleges for 1868, 1869 would be made, it had decided "that it shall not be lawful to continue such Grants hereafter."

On the 2nd of December, 1868, Mr. M. Clarke, moved, seconded by Mr. A. Fraser, "that, in the opinion of the House, it is necessary and expedient, in the interest of

Collegiate Education, that some comprehensive scheme should be devised, or adopted, for giving effect to the objects, and for extending the operation of the University Act of 1853, 16th Victoria, Chapter 89, in the establishment of a Provincial University, and the affiliation of Colleges to be supported in connection therewith."

In amendment Mr. J. C. Rykert moved, that "while the House recognises the inportance of the Educational interests of the Country, it is still of the opinion, as expressed by the Act of last Session, that no College, or Educational Institution, under the control of any Religious Denomination, should receive aid from the Public Treasury."

In amendment to this amendment Mr. E. Blake moved, "That this House, while firmly adhering to the view that Denominational Colleges should not be supported by the State, is prepared to give its best consideration to any scheme which may be laid before it for the improvement of Superior Education, and for the establishment and maintenance through the Provincial University, of a uniform and elevated standard of graduation.

A protracted debate took place on this subject. The following are the Speeches which were made on the occasion which were reported by Mr. J. E. Edwards, and which I think it desirable to reproduce in this Chapter:

Mr. Clark in moving his Resolution said that he thought that, in proposing to the House the adoption of this Resolution, he was infringing no rule of Parliamentary procedure. It was undoubtedly a well recognized principle that it was not competent for Parliament, without a Message of recommendation from the Crown, to pass any vote under which the public money might be appropriated, or expended. That rule was clearly laid down in the high authority on Parliamentary Government, which was cited on a recent occasion by his honourable friend the Attorney-General. But, while the rule was very clearly established, the exception to it was not the less clearly established, namely, that it was in the undoubted power of Parliament to tender its advice to the Crown upon any public questions whatever, and by its Resolution to affirm, as an abstract proposition, the expediency of any public measure, although to carry out such measure it might be necessary to expend the public money. The vote itself did not provide for the expenditure of public money. The vote simply affirmed the desirability of a particular measure, and, if the Crown adopted the advice of Parliament, it might choose such ways and means for carrying out the measure as to its responsible Advisers seemed expedient. The Resolution being in order, he would mention briefly the reasons which induced him and those who agreed with him to bring the matter to the notice of the House. In asking the House to adopt the Resolution, the intention was to initiate a movement which had for its object the improvement of our Educational System, which they believed to be at present an imperfect and incomplete system, in so far as concerned that important part of it, the Institutions for imparting Collegiate Instruction. But he had heard it said that the education of the masses was one thing, and Collegiate Education was another. Some said let the wealthy who desire collegiate education pay for it. "Let us aid," they said "the humble scholar in acquiring an ordinary education, and if he wishes to acquire more than that, let him pay for it himself," or what was the same thing to him, let him do without it. Those who took that view of the matter would just open the book of knowledge to the student and when he had learned enough to give him a desire to learn more, would close it to him altogether. But it was not in the interests of the wealthy that any system of national instruction was established. The wealthy could always educate themselves. It was in order that poverty should be no bar to intellectual progress—in order that, where the aptitude for learning existed, there should spring up men sympathizing with and carrying with them the sympathies of the people, who would be qualified to take part in public affairs and in the more prominent avocations and pursuits of the Country. If then it was desirable that the class of institutions referred to in the Resolution should receive national sup

port, we should see what had been done by us in this direction. We had a Common School System, which he believed was rendering great and important services to the Country; a Grammar School System, imperfect perhaps in its details, but still very beneficial in its operation. We had Upper Canada College, a useful Institution, but still scarcely a part of any system, and then our fine Provincial University. When he spoke of the University, he wished it to be understood that neither he nor any other of the honourable gentlemen who had agreed with him in this matter, had the least intention of trenching upon the Endowment, the rank, or the privileges of the University. The present scheme was а building up, a constructive, not a levelling measure. For his own part, he cherished as much regard and admiration for that Institution as its warmest friends did. He hoped, then, that this declaration made in all sincerity would satisfy those who were apprehensive for the University; that the present proposal was no measure of spoliation, but what it professed to be one for the further development of our Educational System. But between the University and the rest of our national Educational Institutions, there existed a great chasm. Between the University on the one hand, supplying the very highest kind of instruction, and our Common and Grammar School Systems on the other, which supplied a kind of instruction peculiar to them, there was a want which had hitherto been in a great measure supplied by what was known as the Denominational Colleges. It would scarcely be contended that every Student who wished to acquire a Collegiate Education should come to Toronto for the purpose. He did not think the capacities of the University and Upper Canada College would admit of it, and even if they did, the considerations of expense would preclude by far the greater number. He did not think either that it was advisable that our entire Collegiate System should be centralized in one locality. The example of other Countries showed that, at all events, there it had not been considered desirable. When we looked at England and saw such places as Eton and Harrow and Rugby; and at Germany, and saw such places as Heidelberg and Bonn, and when we see such a large number of Colleges situate in small Towns in the United States, we must perceive that in those Countries it had not been deemed desirable to concentrate the Academic System in the great centres of population. He thought that such a system, to be enjoyed by the whole Country, ought to be diffused over the whole Country. It would then be more accessible to the whole Country, its benefits would be more generally felt, it would become cheaper; the money expended in maintaining it benefited more the whole Country, and it was quite consistent with that diffusion of the System that there should be a centre to it, in the shape of a University, which would form the capital of the whole edifice. It was evidently with some such object, as this in view that Parliament, passed the Act referred to in the Resolution-the Statute-known as the University Act of 1853. That, by Sections 1 and 2, it was provided that there should be a Corporation known as the University of Toronto. By Section 3, that Body should in effect be an examining, and not a teaching, Body. That by Section 4, its Board should be composed of the Chancellor, the Vice Chancellor, and the Members of the Senate nominated by the Government. It was provided by the 25th Section that the benefits of the University and the privilege of obtaining its Degrees, should be extended to the Graduates of other Colleges, and, by Section 26, those Colleges were declared to be the chartered Collegiate Institutions of the Province, which should affiliate with the University. By Section 30, it was provided that the Regulations of the Senate, with respect to the literary and scientific attainment of persons obtaining Degrees, and their Examinations should, as far as circumstances would admit, be similar to those in force in the University of London. The plan of the University of London was well known. It consisted of a Corporation which exercised the power of examining Pupils in certain prescribed branches of study, and conferring Degrees, Honours and Scholarships. The Pupils examined received no part of their instruction from the University, but in different Colleges lying in different parts of the Country, and affiliated with the University. The Act then

went on in Sections, from 39 to 54, to establish and define the functions of University College. University College was to be a Body quite distinct from the University, and of quite a different character. University College was to be a teaching Body, a firstclass College, handsomely endowed, but having a separate organization, and in no way connected with the University beyond what other Colleges might be, having the privilege of sending its Students to the University and obtaining its Degrees, just as other affiliated Colleges should have. As regards Endowment, the House was aware that at an early perior an appropriation was made of a quantity of the waste Lands of the Crown for the advancement of Academic Instruction. By this Act the Endowment was to provide two funds, to be called respectively the Income Fund and the Permanent Fund. The Income Fund was to be composed of all the interest on sales of Land, sold and not paid for, and of the interest on all moneys invested; and the Permanent Fund was to be composed of the purchase money of land sold, and of the Principal of money invested. By the 78th Section, the Income Fund was to be devoted, (after paying charges of management), firstly to defraying the expenses of the University; secondly, to defraying the expenses of University College; and, by the 81st Section, the surplus of the Income Fund was to be appropriated by Parliament from time to time to the advancement of Academical Education in Upper Canada. The Permanent Fund was to be kept intact, to produce a revenue in future years, excepting a part of it should be required for purposes of improvement. From this short review of the Act it would appear that, in addition to the object previously referred to, there had been in view as regards the Endowment, three other objects; Namely, to sustain the University, to sustain the University College, and, afterwards, so far as the Income Fund would allow, to sustain the other Academic Institutions of the Country. Two of those objects had been attained. The two Institutions at Toronto had been amply supported, but as regards the last objects, the Act had failed altogether. At the time the Act was passed, in 1853, there was an excess of Revenue over the Expenditure of the Toronto establishments of $12,138 from the Income Fund, so that the Legislature very naturally supposed that about that sum would in each year be at the disposal of Parliament wherewith to aid the other Colleges. But since about 1857, in consequence of the expensive Buildings put up for the use of the University, not only had the Income Fund been all expended, but it had been found necessary to trench very largely on the Permanent Fund. It was no part of his object to enquire how far this was judicious, nor how far it was legal to encroach upon the Permanent Fund. He wished merely to point out to the House that the other Collegiate Institutions, so far from receiving any aid from the Income Fund, had seen the Permanent Fund, the corpus of the Endowment itself, very considerably diminished. The question might be asked why was it that the outlying Colleges did not affiliate with the University. The answer to that was, that the defective character of the Act was not calculated to secure that object. The Act made no certain provision for any of the Colleges. They were only to have such portions of the Income Fund as the University and the University College chose to leave, and as they chose to leave nothing, there was no inducement for the Colleges to affiliate. In the next place, the constitution of the Senate was unfavorable to the affiliation. Under the Act, the Members of the Senate were nominated by the Crown, and the affiliated Colleges had no right as such to be represented in the Senate. A few of the Profesorrs in outlying Colleges were appointed to Senatorships, but, as a general thing, the Senate was controlled by gentlemen interested in University College. Consequently the other Colleges, finding that they would have no weight, or influence, in the Board of the University, and practically speaking, would have nothing to do with its management, refused to affiliate at all. Now, if those were the objects of the Act of 1853, and if they had been frustrated by the defective nature of the Act itself, he was proposing to the House no novelty when he said that we should make better provision for carrying out the intentions of that Act. We found a certain purpose declared on our Statute Book, and it was now proposed that that purpose should now be carried out by some more effectual provision than that which now exists.

The scheme which was foreshadowed in the Resolution before the House, and which it was believed would answer the purpose, was a scheme for the promotion of Academical Instruction so comprehensive and provincial in its character that it should meet with general approval, and the basis of which was an affiliation of the local Colleges with the University. In order to show that such a measure would meet with general approval, he would refer to the views of some of the public men, whose opinions were entitled to great weight. In 1861 there was issued a Commission to enquire into the working of the University of Toronto. The Commissioners were the Honourable James Patton, (then the Vice-chancellor of the University,) Doctor Beatty, of Cobourg, and Mr. John Paton, of Kingston. The Report presented by those gentlemen was very valuable, and he would now refer to it. Under the head of Suggestions, it was recommended that the Senate be reconstituted and consist of a fixed number, namely, the Heads of the Colleges, one Member from each affiliated College, elected by its Members, and the remaining third appointed by the Government; that the name be changed to the University of Upper Canada, and that the Senate should establish a common Curriculum of Education. It would be seen, also, by this Report, that the Authorities of the University themselves were in favour of some such measure as this. In answer to the inquiries of the Commissioners, the Senate said, "that it was desirable that there should be one University Board for Upper Canada, to be designated the University of Upper Canada, to which certain Colleges should be affiliated." The same views were expressed by the Principal of Queen's College, the Principal of Victoria College, the President of Regiopolis College, and nearly the same views by the Provost of Trinity College. Those were the opinions expressed on behalf both of the University and the Colleges, and also by the Commissioners appointed to examine specially into the matter. And as regards the opinions of the people at large, he ventured to say that these views would be endorsed not only by a majority, but a very large majority indeed of the people of Ontario. The numerous petitions presented to this House, now amounting to several hundreds, and the character of the individuals signing those petitions, ought to be sufficient to convince this House that the great mass of the people of this Province were in favour of the promotion of higher education by some such measure as this. Who were the people signing those petitions? Take them in a religious point of view, and they were of nearly all the numerous bodies of Christians in the Country. Take them in a social point of view, and they embraced all classes, from the Judge on the Bench down to the labourer. And looked at politically, we found on the one hand the Premier of the Dominion, representing one class of opinions, and, as for the other, he (Mr. Clark) had the honour of presenting a favourable Petition a few days ago to which was appended the signature of a gentleman who was Chairman of a great Convention which met in Toronto last year, to settle the fate of the nation. It should be remembered that, while the objects of the Act of 1853, so far as the outlying Colleges were concerned, was defeated, those Institutions enjoyed some compensation for their loss in the shape of small Annual Grants from Parliament. During the last Session the Lieutenant-Governor, in a Message to this House, declared the inexpediency of continuing those Grants in the future. It was not sought now to re-open that question. Although, under the practice of Grants, the injustice done to any one was infinitessimally small, yet, theoretically, the practice was open to objection, for it proceeded upon no logical or symmetrical plan. It was his intention, at the beginning of this Session, to urge the advisability of affording a temporary aid to the Colleges until something more efficient was substituted for the Grant system, but, on the advice of some honourable Members on both sides of the House, it had been deemed best to strike at the root of the evil at once, and to propose an entirely new scheme for the advancement of Academic Instruction. It should scarcely be required of him to indicate precisely what the details of such a scheme would be. It would be for His Excellency's Government, if the Resolution were passed, to devise the best ways and means for attaining the object which was had in view. Let the Government bring down their own scheme on the subject, and if it should be a compre