the mileage, would be sufficient to enable men who might be elected to attend the convention, and more than that sum ought not to be given.

Mr. Knowlton was in favor of a larger sum than that proposed by the gentleman from Dane. He was of opinion that the sum proposed would be so small as to prevent men of talent and influence from attending on the convention. It may be sufficient for members who reside in the town of Madison, where they can attend to their ordinary business, and also on the convention, but such was not the case in the more distant counties. Should he himself be elected to that convention, he was sure he could not afford to come here for that pay, and he was of opinion that no man who would be elected from Crawford could or would attend, by reason of the sacrifice they would be obliged to suffer.

Moses M. Strong moved to fill the blank with $2.

Mr. Kneeland was opposed to the sum proposed by the gentleman from Iowa. The expense of the sessions of the last legislature was $300 a day, and if that should be assumed as any data from which to make conclusions as to the amount of expenses of the convention, they could not be less than $20,000. That amount he was unwilling to saddle upon the territory and state of Wisconsin. His own opinion was that members should receive no pay.

Moses M. Strong believed that the true policy on this subject was either to pay members of the convention nothing and thus secure the attendance of none but wealthy men in the convention or to pay them such a sum as would enable the poor man to attend. Gentlemen were for having a constitution formed with little or no expense to the people, but in that they would find themselves mistaken; and it mattered not how soon they were undeceived, otherwise they would wake from their dreams with a large territorial or state debt. The people have now or will have to make up their minds to pay the expenses of forming the constitution, and two dollars will not be more than sufficient pay for the labor required.

Mr. Knowlton was in favor of having in that convention some of that class of men who were unable to give their time and services to the public. Among them were some of our best and soundest-minded men-men whom he wanted not only to see represented, but representatives in the convention.

The bill to insert $2 was lost, and $1.50 per day prevailed. Mr. Baker moved to amend the bill so as to hold the convention at Milwaukee instead of Madison.

Moses M. Strong moved to insert Mineral Point, which was lost.

Marshall M. Strong moved to insert Green Bay, which was

lost.

And then Milwaukee was lost. After which the committee and the Council adjourned.

DEBATE IN THE COUNCIL, JANUARY 17, 184625

Mr. Knowlton, in committee of the whole, moved to strike out the word "eighteen hundred" in section 11, and insert the words "twenty-three hundred." His object was to have a less number in the convention than was proposed in the bill (about ninety). He was of opinion that a small convention would make a constitution that would give more general satisfaction to the people than a large body. He would cite the case of framing the constitution of the United States, where there were only about forty delegates; and would anyone expect that a convention of 2,300 would have been more democratic-more safe to the welfare of our country, or have given better satisfaction to the people in general than the one adopted. Again, the state of New York, containing over two million six hundred thousand inhabitants, has

25 The report is taken from the Madison Wisconsin Argus, January 27,

agreed upon 160 delegates to amend their constitution. According to population we would have but seven at that ratio. Compare the state of New York with Massachusetts; the former, containing more population than all New England, has but 128 in the Assembly, while the latter has about 500, and who will contend that the laws of the former are better and give more general satisfaction to the people than those of the latter. Mr. K. cited the Supreme Court of the United States, and also our own supreme court, to further illustrate his views. He had seen courts with five judges in New York, but their decisions were not so satisfactory as the decisions of the circuit judge alone, and he believed the same remark would apply to our district courts. The last one he would trouble the committee with was that of the Declaration of Independence. Does anyone suppose that five thousand persons, congregated together for that purpose, would have made a better and more satisfactory declaration than the one drafted by Thomas Jefferson-the greatest paper ever presented to the world? If the amendment prevails we shall have about seventy delegates, and he had heard no arguments in favor of a larger number. The committee had reduced the per diem of the delegates to one dollar and fifty cents on account of the "expenses"; why not reduce the number and give better pay so that the worthy poor could come as well as the rich. He had observed by the votes that no person who would be considered wealthy voted in the negative, while the poorer voted in the negative. Why the difference? Because the poor felt that they could not let their families suffer for the purpose of attending the convention, and of course they judged that others would have the same feelings. It seemed to him that there was more buncombe in this than sound argument. As for his part, he was in favor of paying all the servants of the people enough to secure talented men, or sufficient to honor the office instead of having the office honor the man.

Motions were made to insert severally 1,000, 1,100, 1,200, 1,300, 1,400, 1,500, 1,600, 1,700, 2,000, 2,100, 2,200, and 3,000, as the ratio, all of which failed; and then 2,300 was lost.

Marshall M. Strong moved so to amend this section that no county should have an additional member unless it had a moiety of 1,800 over and above the first 1,800 inhabitants.

Moses M. Strong moved to amend the amendment so as to make the ratio 1,300 instead of 1,800. That ratio would probably keep the representation about the number that was proposed by the bill, and it appeared plain that the Council was determined to retain that number of representatives. He hoped if the amendment was to be made, they would adopt such a number as would not reduce the number in the convention.

Mr. Whiton was opposed to the original section as distributing the members unequally among the people; but he was more opposed to the amendment now proposed. The original bill gave a member to each county irrespective of its population—that is, a member is given to a district of country; in that alone consisted the inequality of the bill. But when this member has been disposed of, the ratio or a moiety of the ratio was certainly entitled to another member whether that moiety was in a large or small county. This must operate unequally and unjustly in those counties which have a large fraction, but not a moiety of the ratio. Thus a county of 2,600 will be entitled to no more representation than will a county of 100.

Mr. Baker was in favor of the principle of the amendment proposed. He would, however, concede that extreme instances could be pointed out in which it would operate unequally; at the same time there was no county which would not have a representative, and though there should be some inequality, it was as equal as it could well be under all the circumstances.

Mr. Strong, of Racine, would accept the proposition of the gentleman from Iowa, and fix the ratio at 1,300.

Mr. Whiton: That amendment, though it may remove in part, will not remove in whole the objection he had to the amendment. Take for example the county with an assumed population of 910, by the bill, and the ratio fixed at 1,800; this county would have one for the county and for the fraction of 910 it would have another member, making two members in the convention, while by the amendment it would require a population of 1,950 to give it two members. By this supposition it must be plain that there may be a fraction varying from 1 to 1,050 which by the bill would be represented, which would not be by the amendment. Again, suppose the county of Racine to have 9,900 inhabitants or five times 1,800; by the bill it would have five representatives by the ratio, one for the fraction of 900, and one for the county, making in all seven representatives. By the amendment this county would have seven members, and a fraction of 800 entitling them to an eighth member in the convention; thus plainly showing a manifestly unjust inequality operating in favor of the large counties and against the small ones, and this in equality increasing as the number of the population increases.

Mr. Knowlton rose to oppose the amendment, but observing several members of the Council assembled near the fireplace engaged in earnest conversation, he said that it appeared to him as if there was a disposition to carry measures through the Council by lobbying, and it appeared useless to discuss matters further.

Moses M. Strong called Mr. K. to order, and while reducing the words to writing, Mr. Whiton moved that Mr. K. have leave to proceed.

Moses M. Strong explained that he and the others who had been referred to were engaged on another subject.

Mr. Knowlton: If that be true then I will retract all I have said that could injure the feelings of gentlemen.

Moses M. Strong withdrew his point of order, and Mr. Knowlton stated [that] in his opinion the amendment offered