Ewart). That hon. Member had drawn a | in particular, ought to be investigated in comparison between the systems and state all its details. He hoped no attempt would of education in England and France, and be made to impair the freedom of private had advocated the French system of in- munificence, or to restrain private efforts; struction, in preference to the system in but, at the same time, he must say, he force in this country. Now if any one was considered the State was bound to furnish desirous of informing himself of the true the means of giving the people a better character and working of the French sys- system of instruction than that which was tem, he would recommend him attentively now to be found. These discussions in to peruse a work by M. Cormenin, which Parliament would do good. They would gave such a full exposure of the system as tend to elevate the character of the teacher, would deter him from desiring to see it and to cause him eventually to occupy that adopted in this country. It was quite im- position in the public mind which he cerpossible, considering circumstances con- tainly did not enjoy at present. Nothing nected with some of the French profes- could be more satisfactory to him than to sorial chairs, to assimilate the French with find that the Government were about to the English system of instruction. He was give their attention to the subject. In the well aware of the kind of popular argument Votes, he saw a sum of 100,000l. was to that was constructed out of and founded be asked for the use of the British and Foreign School Society. Now, he did not complain of this vote; but if no other hon. Member took up the subject, he should, at the proper time, ask the House to inquire whether the British and Foreign School Society had kept faith with the public; and to ascertain if a violation on their part of the terms on which they had received the public money had not occurred. He did hope in these establishments that no religious tests would have been introduced. He understood, however, that some of the teachers had been rejected, on the ground that the doctrines they held were not exactly orthodox. The subject was one that ought to be investigated; and he feared, when an investigation did take place, the fact would be as he suspected. He hoped the attention of the House and of Government would be directed to the subject. upon statistical returns. The advocates of the French system constantly told them of every commune in France possessing its primary and secondary educational institutions; they were told of schools appointed by the State, and Ministers of Public Instruction responsible for the education of the people. All this doubtless sounded very well on paper; but the real state of educational affairs in France was to be collected from the able book of M. Cormenin. Ho should deeply regret to see that system on which our Church, and our charitable institutions were mainly founded-the system of private munificence-superseded by the French system. He should be sorry to see those splendid private efforts, which were founded on private virtue and selfdenial, give place to the French system; for if that system were adopted, the same results would soon be witnessed here as were now witnessed in France. DR. BOWRING was surprised to find that his hon. Friend's remarks had been so misunderstood as to lead other hon. Members to believe, he wished to throw a check on those individual efforts which conferred so much honour on this country. Ile did not wish to see the despotic system, even in matters of education, enforced in this country; and, indeed, he thought the people of England would never consent to hand over their educational system to that species of despotism wielded by a Minister of Instruction. But he must say, that very little had been done for the education of the people in this country. It was disgraceful to the Government that this was so. In these days of peace, the requirements of the people ought to come prominently forward. The subject of education, MR. ESTCOURT, as one of the Members for the University of Oxford, felt it was impossible to allow the Vote to pass without expressing his great satisfaction at the tone which had been observed during the present discussion, by the noble Lord and other hon. Members, who had addressed the House. On former occasions attempts were made to impress the House with the belief that the promotion of public education ought to be the work of Government. But he would remind those who held this opinion, that the most successful and most advantageous national results had been accomplished by private efforts of individuals. He wished to express his anxiety for an increase of the number of establishments for training masters. Certainly, there was a period when ignorance greatly prevailed; but he had lived to see a great improvement in the system, and in particular, he saw his neighbours now enjoying an im- | greatest in those districts which were proved means of education in consequence found to be the most destitute. of having the advantage of a mistress from one of the training schools. He had been peculiarly gratified at hearing the noble Member for Newark and other hon. Members state their views on education. He was one of those who thought that the country would derive no advantage from making men good scholars, without reference to moral character. He agreed in the opinion that it was better to teach that system which made men good men and good subjects, rather than that system which sought only te make good scholars. He entertained a very favourable opinion of the establishments for training masters, and he hoped to see them endowed by Go vernment. MR. EWART, in explanation, said he never uttered any wish to introduce the French system into this country. He had only said that the French system of training masters and of normal schools was well worthy of consideration. He did not mean to say that religion should be left entirely out of account. Although he did not think it was advisable to have religion taught in the public schools, still he considered that the religion inculcated by the religious teachers ought to form part of the system. House in Committee of Supply. EDUCATION-ENGLAND. On the Question, that 100,000l. be granted for Public Education in Great Britain, MR. HUME thought it extremely desirable that, before called upon to vote money for this object, they should have before them an account of the manner in which the Votes of money in previous years had been expended. He regretted to say that, so far, the practice had been to favour the richer and to neglect the poorer districts. He did not object to the amount required; he only hesitated to approve of the mode of application. MR. PARKER could assure the hon. Member that the details which he asked for were to be found, at full and satisfactory length, in the Minutes of the Committee of Council. MR. WILLIAMS considered the system altogether bad of Government, before it advanced money, waiting for proofs of power to co-operate on the part of those who applied. There ought to be an inspection of the means of providing education in every parish throughout England and Wales, and the liberality should be DR. BOWRING wished to know what proportion of the money went to the National Society. MR. ACLAND could not answer as regarded this year. Last year the National Society made 430 applications, and there were granted 70,5541., the whole of which was accepted. From the British and Foand the grants to that society amounted to reign Society there were 16 applications, 20,500l. It would, therefore, appear that the National Society was most anxious for an extension of education. MR. HINDLEY thought that the hon. Member had made a somewhat unfair use of the question, and of his information. The hon. Member desired the House, apparently, to understand that, among the Dissenting body of the population, the anxiety for a better and more comprehensive education was exceedingly slight; but it should not be forgotten, that by the principles which they professed, they were precluded almost altogether from availing The Dissenthemselves of the State aid. ters were strongly of opinion that it was not right and not politic that education should be in the hands of the Government; and for that reason they rejected the assistance which might be derived from the Government, and of which the professors of other religions did not hesitate to avail themselves. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER could not see that anything had fallen from the hon. Member (Mr. Acland) to justify the reproach which had been heaped upon him; and he was very sure that the hon. Member was the last man in that House to offer an insult to any body of men. Nothing could be more gratifying than the good feeling which had that evening marked the discussion, on whatever side of the House it had been taken up, on this subject; and he trusted that nothing would occur to vary that characteristic. He agreed entirely with the hon. Member for Montrose in thinking it expedient that before coming to this Vote, they should, in future, have before them that information from which they might learn in what manner and where the money was applied. Vote agreed to. EDUCATION-IRELAND. On the Question-the sum of 85,000l. required to enable the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to issue money for the advancement of Education, SIR R. INGLIS wished, without seeking to discuss the questions of education in Ireland, to take that opportunity of urging on his noble Friend at the head of the Government the expediency of doing what he would call common justice to their fellow subjects, members of the Established Church in that portion of the kingdom. He believed that no body of men were more entitled to complain of the system which provided for public education; and what they had demanded, as satisfaction and as justice, was that they should be permitted to apply to the Committee of Privy Council, as members of the National Society. This question had been raised eighteen months ago; and the application, though urged by the Lord Primate of Ireland, was by the then Prime Minister rejected. It should always be borne in mind that the members of the Church in Ireland were members of one united Church; and, if it were just to continue in Ireland a system of education from which that Church derived no benefit, yet, at any rate, they ought to be placed, in their applications to the Committee of Council, on the same footing as their brethren in England. Irish people that they had the same laws as the English, when the very first Votes they were called on to approve of showed that the system of education was quite different in the two countries. In England money was given to support that system which was approved of by the majority of those for whose benefit it was intended, or was distributed to the various religious bodies. In Ireland the fact was quite the reverse. The whole of the money was given to support a system of education against which not only the English Church, but the great bulk of the Roman Catholics protested. The hon. Member for Cork had, in the most distinct and emphatic terms, admitted that the claim of the hon. Member for Oxford was just, fair, and equitable. How could that be called a national system of education which excluded one-fourth of the people from its advantages? It appeared that a great number of the people were educated by a system set up in opposition to the National Board. But the House said to those who did not approve of this system, "We will not educate your children at all, unless you approve of that system which has been established by us in our wisdom within the last few years.' When he read of the addresses and deputations which had been presented to the Government by a large portion of the intelligent people of Ireland, he thought their opinions entitled to some consideration. Indeed, he was bound to say that the way in which hon. Gentlemen in that House treated those appeals was one of the most MR. BORTHWICK had hoped that the extraordinary phenomena of the present contiguity of the hon. Member for Mon- day. Thinking that liberty of conscience trose to the protectionist benches would should be respected, and that the minds of have imparted a little more liberality than the Irish people should not be alienated he showed on this occasion. All the Church from this country by disregard of their of England sought was equal freedom of feelings and opinions, he would press on educating the children of her communion the noble Lord at the head of Her Mawith that of other religious denominations. jesty's Government the wisdom and the As far as the religious teaching of the peo-justice of listening to the appeal which had ple was concerned, he believed that the been made to him. system of Sunday schools might be most profitably and entirely superseded by means of the Church itself. MR. HUME: So far as he could judge from observation, the educational system in Ireland was administered in perfect fairness; but he was sorry to observe much bitterness of feeling excited by the Protestant clergy in preventing the children over whom they had control attending the national schools. LORD J. MANNERS rose to support the appeal of the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford. He did not ask the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government for any pledge on this subject, or for any expression of opinion, but begged him to take into his consideration the very anomalous and unfair state of national education in Ireland. He could not conceive how he could tell the MR. G. A. HAMILTON said, he admired so much the temperate and conciliatory tone of the speeches which the noble Lord at the head of the Government had made, both on the present and on the preceding evening, that although he felt very strongly on the subject of the national system of education in Ireland, he had determined not to offer a single remark on the vote before the Committee which could excite an angry or irritating discussion. He agreed most fully with the noble Lord in the opinion he had expressed last night, SIR R. INGLIS declared that it was only doing him justice to say that he had carefully abstained from expressing any opinion as to the national system of education in Ireland. He had urged on his noble Friend at the head of Her Majesty's Government the justice and expediency of giving to those members of the Church of England who lived in Ireland the benefit of a common share in national education on principles on which they could accept it. Whatever might be his feelings on the subject, he did not say anything in reference to the merits of the national system itself, and the hon. Member the Secretary for Ireland misunderstood him if he thought so. that the improvement of the social condi- | her friends that the youth of that country tion of the people of Ireland was an object were being trained up in habits of moof such prominent importance at the pre- rality and religion, of which he believed sent time, that it outweighed every other the most incalculable advantages would be question affecting that country, however found in time. The system had been important; and he also agreed with the wisely introduced, had, as he believed, noble Lord in thinking, that with a view worked excellently well, and was receiving to that improvement, it was most desirable less opposition every day. to avoid, as far as possible, the discussion of any topics involving party differences in Ireland. Acting on that principle, he would not even now be tempted by the observations of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose, to depart from the course he had prescribed for himself, and would not therefore enter at all into the question of the national system of education. But he must say, in consequence of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman, that if the Protestant Clergy and gentry of Ireland objected to that system, and did not lend their sanction in promoting it, it was because, in their opinion, there was a principle of vital importance involved in it, to which they could not conscientiously subscribe, and which presented an insuperable obstacle to their giving their adhesion to it. He would join in the appeal made to the noble Lord at the head of the Government by his hon. Friend near him, the Member for the University of Oxford, and supported by the noble Lord the Member for Newark; and he confidently believed that if the noble Lord would give his mind to MR. EWART took occasion to point the subject, before the next Session of Par-out room for improvement in the existing liament he would find that without any system. He thought that the provinces infringement upon what might now be con- should find their own schools of design, sidered the settled principles of the na- receiving whatever assistance might be tional system, this irritating question necessary from the Government. might be settled in the manner suggested by his hon. Friend to the satisfaction of all parties in Ireland. MR. LABOUCHERE had no intention of speaking at any length on the question, and only rose lest his silence should be misinterpreted, and lest any one might suppose that he, as a Member of Her Majesty's Government, entertained the smallest doubt of the duty which was imposed on them of maintaining and supporting that principle on which the national system of education in Ireland had been founded. There were no circumstances connected with that country which inspired him with greater hope and pleasure than the belief that, owing to the instrumentality of that system, the people of Ireland were enjoying the advantages of an education which many other countries, more fortunately situated in other respects, did not participate. He thought it was full of hope for Vote agreed to. SCHOOL OF DESIGN. On the Question that 5,3817. be granted to defray the expenses of the School of Design in London and the other Schools throughout the Kingdom connected with it, MR. HUME suggested that the surplus of the sums received for registering designs, which appeared by the report which had been presented to the House to amount to 9,000l. might be applied to the purposes of the schools of design. DR. BOWRING thought the Government ought to establish some tribunal to decide on the copyright of designs, and would recommend them to follow the example of France in this respect. He believed the establishment of the councils of prud' hommes had done more than anything else to contribute to their excellence in this branch of art. MR. BORTHWICK hoped there would be some limit to the system of following the laws of France, which was so often urged on them. He could not see why the tribunals which decided all other matters in this country could not decide on the copyright of designs also. been brought forward on the responsibility THE NATIONAL GALLERY. On the Question that 3,3901. be granted for the National Gallery, MR. BORTHWICK objected to an item of 6301., being the price of a portrait purchased for the National Gallery as a production of Hans Holbein. No man who knew anything of art would say that it was. The purchase had been made under an erroneous impression, though the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) was understood to have had a part in the matter. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER observed, that in this case a deception had no doubt been successfully practised. Hopes were entertained that the sum might be recovered from the vendor; but it was found impracticable to resist the claim. SIR J. GRAHAM said, that this increased sum was for four professors of divinity in the institution in Belfast, each receiving 1251. When the Irish Colleges Bill passed last year, no provision was made for the religious instruction of the people. In the north of Ireland sufficient provision did not exist for the religious instruction of those who were intended for the priesthood of the Orthodox Presbyterians. A deputation had waited upon him upon the subject, composed of the moderator and four eminent clergymen, members of the Orthodox Synod of Ulster, and strongly urged the necessity of such a grant. It was considered by the Government that it was only fair that something should be done for training the priesthood of such a SIR J. GRAHAM stated, that for many numerous body as this class of Presbyte-years he had been one of the trustees of rians in the north of Ireland, and consequently this small grant was made. MR. HUME wished to know if there had been a recommendation in writing to purchase the picture. If not, he trusted this would be a warning in future that no such purchase should take place without a written recommendation. the National Gallery. It was very easy for the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. MR. LABOUCHERE said, he felt con- Borthwick), in the absence of the right siderable difficulty in referring to the sub- hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), ject, as he had not the advantage which to speak contemptuously, and it was very was possessed by the right hon. Gentleman safe. It was necessary to tell the hon. opposite of having fully entered into the Member for Evesham that the right hon. casc, for he (Mr. Labouchere) knew no- Member for Tamworth, though a trustee, thing of it except from what he had heard. had, for the last four or five years, had There was no question of principle involved other avocations, which materially interin it; but he certainly could not help think- fered with his attendance. The trustees ing that there would have been an advan- were in this instance deceived. They emtage in postponing this arrangement until ployed people in whom they could confide; the Queen's College, which was now found- and the party consulted in the present case ed in the town of Belfast, had heen estab-had never before been known to be wrong. lished. However, as those professors were He was now dead. In this case, beyond all connected with such a body as the Presby-doubt, his judgment was wrong; but, terians of the north of Ireland, he should certainly be very sorry to take any step that could in the slightest degree be deemed hostile to them; and the vote having though the picture was not one of Holbein's, it was not generally admitted to be a bad picture. The hon. Member for Newark knew something of the reasons |