of the parochial clergy, and a fund which should go to make the episcopacy of England more completely efficient; and the noble Earl wished to overturn that fundamental principle. Now he thought it of considerable importance that the grounds of this Motion should be distinctly understood, and after the speech of the noble Earl it was absolutely essential; till that time, he had thought the question was confined to the principle the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had stated. In much of what the noble Marquess had stated, he (the Bishop of Oxford) heartily agreed; and for much of it he, with his right rev. Brethren, tendered him his sincere thanks; but the pleasure and gratitude he felt were in some little degree diminished when the noble Earl seemed to explain away and unsay what had been said by the head of the Government in that House; and it was with great regret that he had heard the qualifications and retractations from the noble Marquess's speech which seemed to be delivered from the Treasury bench. The noble Marquess took the ground which had been commonly taken, that the Commissioners had thoroughly considered the subject, and had agreed to a great and consistent scheme, and that their Lordships could not agree to the Motion of the noble Earl without upsetting that scheme-that it was most important not to upset it—and that, therefore, their Lordships should reject the Bill of the noble Earl. That argument had two or three distinct phases. They were told that this Commission, including in its numbers members of the right reverend Bench, most respected, and whose age was highly calculated to add weight and efficiency to their recommendations, had approved of this scheme; and yet, when they came to particulars, they found it stated that the vote of the right rev. Primate would not be given at all, and the vote of the venerable Archbishop of the Northern Province would be given in favour of the Motion of his noble Friend. As to the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London), they had heard his speech upon the question. Their Lordships had heard the right rev. Prelate say, with a moral courage which did him the highest honour, that he agreed to the report, because at the moment he had under the pressure of alarm not acted on the dictates of that common sense which would have led him to a different conclusion. The right rev. Prelate added that there should be no present deficiency in the payment of the Bishop of Manchester: he said (and if the House knew fully all which was meant by that engagement, they would honour highly the liberality by which i was dictated) that he would pledge himself that the deficiency should be made up. After-thoughts and wider experience had brought the individual Members of the Commission whose authority had been pleaded round to the other side. Then it was said, the report of the Commission was a great whole, and must stand or fall together. A noble Lord argued that the improvements introduced by this Commission had reconciled the people to the Church of England. But so far as regarded most of the sees, the alterations were still in futurity; there was only a rẻcorded judgment that, under certain circumstances, such and such things should be done. But the recommendation in the present instance was but a collateral recommendation, so that the argument from the grand totality of the report fell to the ground, just as the argument from the individual weight of the Members of the Commission had fallen; it simply amounted to an opinion expressed by certain Commissioners in respect to a future given time, when certain alterations were to be made. But before that time had arrived the very Commissioners themselves had changed their opinions upon the subject. The argument drawn by them from the Commissioners' Report, which went so far as to say that it settled the whole question, was one which he could never recognise. They were bound to give a just decision upon the question now, as if it had been de novo brought before their Lordships, because in fact it was before them as a de novo question, inasmuch as it had never been fully carried into effect. Instead, then, of their being called upon to reverse the decision of the right rev. Prelates, pursuant to the Commissioners' Report, their Lordships were now rather called upon to help them in carrying out their second thoughts, which experience told them were the best thoughts in the best of men. The real question was, should there ever or should there never be an increase of the English episcopate? It had been said that if such an increase were to take place, it would be better to make that increase by one comprehensive measure, which should effect at once all that was on general grounds needful. The whole experience of all men, in all matters of policy, pointed to an opposite conclusion. A great existing institution like the Church of England was to be amended, not by affirming certain abstract principles, which were afterwards to be carried out by one | Catholic persuasion which agreed with the grand and comprehensive measure, but by members of the Church of England in holdremoving admitted abuses and meeting ad- ing episcopacy to be of apostolical orimitted wants. Now it was admitted on all gin? In France, before the Revolution, hands that it was for the interest of religion for 28,000,000 millions of people, there that a bishopric should at once be estab were 145 bishops: since the Revolution, lished at Manchester. Why, then, should for a population twice as large as that of they hesitate in effecting so far this prac- England, there were three times as large tical amendment, by performing at once a number of bishops. For 10,000,000 or their duty in this respect? He begged 12,000,000 of a population in Spain, there leave to remind their Lordships of the cir were 60 bishops. In Greece, 35 bishops. cumstances attending the introduction of It might be said that the former of these the Reform Act into Parliament. Did they were Roman Catholic countries. But let not know that what more than all irritated them come to this country at the period the mind of the people of England upon of the great reformers of religion amongst that subject was the refusal of that House, us- -those true-hearted men, whom he loved when a definite evil was pointed out, to and venerated in his heart-who lived in give representatives to Birmingham? Let the time of Henry VIII. and Elizabeth. their Lordships, in like manner, affirm to- Did they remember the sentiments of night, in this instance, that there should not Latimer that honest-hearted man, who be an increase in the English episcopacy, spoke in his strong Saxon dialect, words to while they admitted that Manchester re- which all England as one man respondquired the appointment of a bishop, and ed. That venerated man said that the their proceedings would create a feeling of bishops, by their fewness, were raised to hostility amongst those who from their such a height above the people as had deep interest in that question were watch- deprived them of the power of exercising ing their movements with particular in- those functions which were inherent in terest. While the noble Earl (Earl Grey) their office, and the first measure of reform admitted that he saw no objection to an which ought to be carried was one for givincrease in the number of bishops here, ing a great increase to the number of those with no qualification of any kind and he bishops. In the time of Henry VIII. it (the Bishop of Oxford) rejoiced in that ad- was proposed to add twenty new sees, so mission, even although it was only as an ab- as to make in all seventy, the number stract proposition-yet he afterwards told of the population being then between them that before such an increase could be 4,000,000 and 5,000,000; yet, at the premade, something more important should be sent day, with a population of 18,000,000, done; but this was altogether incompatible they had only twenty-six. One of the arwith the other act, and put off the doing of guments used against the increase in the the first to an indefinite period. This grand number of bishoprics was, that in olden abstraction was, therefore, to be admitted times they had more want of them than in as theory, and not as a practical principle to these days, because that locomotion and be at once carried out into effect. Another the readiness and rapidity of communicaargument had been used which pointed in the tion had so facilitated the power of prosame direction. It was said that, granted gress from place to place, as to render a an increase were wanted, yet, when these fewer number of them necessary. But he two sees were so very small, why should denied that the utility of the bishop conthey be retained? They however, ex-sisted in his passing rapidly from place to tended over a space of 3,000 square miles, place, or mainly in his mere performance broken with mountain chains, and divided of certain acts, or settling legal questions by such natural impediments as to make it for his clergy. It was not in such ways that impossible to pass conveniently from one the bishop fulfilled his duties. He should part of it to another; the people peculiar in show himself to be what he was, the pastor their habits and language, peculiar in their of pastors. Wherever want was most poverty, peculiarly needing the shepherd's pressing, wherever disease was most fearful, care and the pastor's diligence. The cri- wherever the voice and the consolation of reterion applied to this question was taken ligion were most needed, it was there that from the existing state of English dio- the bishop should be found leading the van ceses. It therefore assumed that their state-it was there he should be found as the was perfect; and so that they needed no unfaltering leader, setting the example to increase. But on the Continent, what others how they should act. But how were was the number of bishops of that Roman' the bishops to do all this if they were to be, to support a Church, although that Church was the Church of fifteen out of eighteen millions of people, but he called upon them to extend to them that power which was possessed already by themselves, of developing freely the strength of their own system. Infidelity, they must all allow, was more by far than a less perfect form of Christianity; and for the sake of the common truth which they all held, he called upon them not to impede them when they sought to increase the machinery and extend the usefulness of the English clergy. He should give his cordial support to the Bill of the noble Earl. as now, affected and oppressed with secular | ber around them. He believed that nothing cares, which hung heavily upon men of would be more calculated to strengthen the highest aspirations, who fain would set the Government in that House, than if the their minds upon things of the other world? noble Marquess who was its representative After all, the bishops were but men; and if there, gave to the measure of his noble they were bound down by business until Friend a generous support, and thereby aidtheir minds were filled full with secular ed the effort which the Church was making affairs-until they were overburdened and for its self-development and improvement. weighed down by secularities-how could He was aware that there were many noble they fulfil their office-be more than other Lords in that House who differed from the men discharging the great mission of the Church of England-he respected their Church of England to this great people? conscientious opinions and convictions-buz No man could look upon what was passing he called upon them to respect their conin the country without admitting that scientious opinions also: he did not call unless something should be done to ex-upon them to aid him in taxing the people tend the knowledge and practice of religion amongst the mass of the population, their laws would be as cobwebs to bind the people when under the pressure of severe affliction or great distress. In such trying seasons, the surest and the only curb upon the multitude was the restraining, purifying power of true religion; and no man who considered deeply the condition of an irreligious people could fail to see that society stood at this very moment upon the thin and trembling crust of some struggling volcano. Without religion, law was useless to restrain the tumultuous swellings of a troubled nation. But unless they (the bishops) were enabled to exhibit their EARL POWIS, in reply, assured their character and perform their mission, how Lordships that he would occupy their time could they lead the people as they should very shortly. The speech of the noble be led ? It had been said by a noble Earl (Earl Grey) would have required obLord that they wanted parish priests more servation from him had it not been folthan bishops; but the history and experi- lowed by the able and eloquent speech of ence of all the past showed that the best the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Oxway to increase the number of the parish ford), a speech worthy of the honoured priests was to increase the bishops. How name he bore, and the effect of which he vain had been all their past efforts in (Earl Powis) was unwilling to diminish. these Colonies to advance the morals and He must, however, say a few words with religion of the people, until they had sent reference to what had fallen from his noble out bishops to them. What were the re- Friend (Lord Stanley), with whom he difsults of such a course in their West India fered with regret, especially upon a quesColonies, and in Van Diemen's Land? tion where the interests of the Church were After they had sent out bishops to these at stake. His noble Friend attributed to places, the priests increased around them, him an attempt to draw a line of distincand society throughout its whole mass was tion between the North and South Wales visibly pervaded by a better influence. To dioceses; and argued that, in arranging the those around him who belonged upon con- dioceses of England and Wales anew, inviction to the English Church, he would say, convenience must necessarily result to they believed that this system which they some particular districts, as had, in fact, followed was from God: let them show some- happened with regard to these. sees; but thing of their faith by the real strength of that, taken as a whole, Wales had its due their exertions, and they would soon see share of episcopal superintendence. He the certain efficacy of their measures. If differed from his noble Friend both in his they constituted their great cities the reasonings and his conclusions. He had seats of bishops, they would reap the most not originated the distinction between the signal blessing to the country from their sees of North and South Wales. The exertions, and those of the clergy, who distinction had been made by his noble would be sure to gather in sufficient num-Friend, and by Parliament. The two sees of St. Asaph and Bangor were amply | his intention to offer any further opposition endowed: those of St. David's and Llan- to the measure. The noble Earl would take his own course as to the expediency of proceeding with the Bill. He wished it merely to be understood that if he did not continue his opposition it was not because he had altered his conviction on the sub www HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, July 20, 1846. MINUTES.] NEW MEMBERS SWORN. For Liskeard, Charles Buller, Esq.-For Stafford County (Southern Division), PUBLIC BILLS.-20. Books and Engravings; Prisons (Ire- Reported. Ejectments, &c. (Ireland); Leases (Ireland); - daff required augmentation. The Com- PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir Edmund Filmer, from favour. MILITARY FLOGGING AT HOUNSLOW. DR. BOWRING: I understand, Sir, that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War is now in a condition to give an answer to the question of which I have given notice of my intention to put this evening to him. It is, Sir, whether his attention have been called to a case in which death is alleged to have been lately caused by the infliction of military flogging. As I do not wish to anticipate his answer or his statement by any reference to newspaper reports, I will merely put the question, with the addition of "whether any steps have been taken by him in con sequence?" MR. FOX MAULE: With reference to this question, I have in the first place, Sir, to say that I am very glad my hon. Friend has used the word "alleged," and that he said "death is alleged to have been caused.” For I must say that the entire proceeding, no doubt from misinformation, has been mis-stated, and the public have been exceedingly misled by the newspapers. This unfortunate man, Frederick White, of the 7th Hussars, was guilty of a most violent and insubordinate act. He struck a non-commissioned officer, who was in the performance of his duty, with a SUGAR DUTIES. The House in Committee of Ways and Means. LORD J. RUSSELL addressed the Chairman (Mr. Greene) as follows:-Sir, had Her Majesty's Ministers been disposed to consult their own ease, they would not in the present state of affairs have proposed any considerable alteration in the Sugar Duties. They would have had plau heavy poker; and the man would have been | moved from the man's back by the flogging, most severely injured, if not killed, by the it may be necessary to mention that that blow, had he caught it otherwise than he piece of skin was removed after death, by had. As it was he was knocked down. surgical operation, for the purpose of exFor this crime Frederick White was, on amining whether the punishment inflicted the 10th of June, tried by a district court- had been in any way the cause of death. martial, and sentenced to receive the mili- The case is this day again before the corotary punishment of 150 lashes. That ner, where these matters will be proved; sentence was confirmed by his Grace the but I have stated enough to show that Commander-in-Chief, and on the 15th of there has been great exaggeration in this June it was carried into effect. I must case, and that it would be well if those state here that it is the practice in the who take upon themselves to report these army, whenever a soldier is sentenced to cases to the public, would make themselves receive punishment by a court-martial, be- more thoroughly acquainted with, and infore it is carried into effect, to have a cer- formed upon the facts before they alarmed tificate from the surgeon of the regiment the public mind by their reports. certifying that the man so sentenced is in a fit state to undergo the punishment; and that certificate accompanied the sentence upon this occasion. On the 15th of June, in the presence of the regiment, the punishment was carried into effect in the usual manner. And so far from there having been any interference by the surgeon of the regiment to take the man down, and a refusal to do so by the commanding officer, there was no interference of any kind whatsoever. After the punish-sible reasons to allege for such a course: the ment had been inflicted, the man was taken advanced state of the Session, the labours down and removed to the hospital in the which this House has already gone through, usual manner, where he was regularly the recent formation of the Government, visited by the surgeon every day. He the intricacy of some of the details conremained in hospital so long as to be de- nected with this question-would have clared fit for duty again, and he was actu- formed, in the eyes of many, grounds suffially so far recovered as to be doing fatigue cient for postponing to another Session any duty in the hospital, when Colonel Whyte large or permanent alteration of the Sugar inquired of the surgeon regarding him. Duties. But, Sir, there are, in our opinOn the 10th of July, however, Colonel ion, considerable evils suffered by the counWhyte received information that the man try in consequence of the present state of was dangerously ill. Under all the cir- these duties. We consider that the great cumstances, he thought it desirable that body of the public are sufferers by the inMr. Warren, the surgeon, should report creased price of sugar-a commodity upon the man's illness, so that additional advice which no less than 12,000,000l., or a sum might be obtained if necessary; but, un- ranging from 11,000,000l. to 13,000,000l., fortunately, before any additional advice is expended by the public in this country: could be obtained, the man, on the 11th of we think that the revenue is a very consiJuly, died. A post mortem examination derable sufferer by the mode in which these took place, at which two other surgeons, duties have been hitherto raised, and the sent down by the Horse Guards, in addi- exclusion, by prohibitory duties, of sugars tion to Dr. Warren, assisted, and the report of a certain class from the markets of made upon that post mortem examination this country. We are also of opinion was to the effect that the punishment had that it is most desirable, for the sake of nothing to do with the cause of the man's the public, for the sake of the interests death. I understand, further, that the which are most concerned, and for the sake medical officer appointed by the coroner's of the trade and commerce of this country, inquisition-appointed, in fact, by the co- to endeavour to arrive at some permanent roner himself to look into the case-has settlement of this question, and not to excome to the same resolution. I will add pose this question any longer to discussion, this much to my reply, that as the public debate, and doubt, from year to year. With have been very much horrified by the report these motives, therefore, however unprethat a large piece of skin had been re-pared we might seem to be on this occa |