meeting of the Board to adopt preliminary measures with a view to carry it into effect. MR. HUME was anxious, before the House went into Committee, to say how desirable he thought it was that some regulations should be made for the future, of such a nature as would tend to stop the constant scenes of crimination and recrimination which were always sure to take place whenever the Navy Estimates were under discussion. It appeared to him that it was most injudicious and improper to cry down our navy throughout the world in this extraordinary manner. Any one who had listened to the hon. Member would suppose that there was no country in the world which had so bad and so inefficient a navy. ADMIRAL BOWLES declared there was nothing whatever in the condition of the navy to create any pain or alarm to the House or the country; and if the hon. and gallant Member (Sir C. Napier) would at any time bring forward a specific charge or censure, he would undertake to meet it. House in Committee of Supply. The House adjourned at a quarter to HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, July 21, 1846. your honourable House to devise means for enabling such congregations to rent or purchase ground on reasonable conditions for the erection of buildings for the worship of God, and to pass a Bill for compensating proprietors, and securing accommodation to congregations in such circumstances, or otherwise to do in the matter as to your wisdom may seem right." Their Lordships would have seen that there was a pretty general feeling and anxiety prevailing in Scotland upon this subject; and would, he hoped, agree with him that, however desirable it might be to support the Established Church in that country, now that a great body of the people of Scotland had seceded from that Church, no hindrance should be given to the free power of exercising their religious worship according to their own particular principles and tenets. It appeared to him, that the rights of property should be exercised consistently with the principles of the Constitution; and that proprietors could not be justified in acting in opposition to those principles. He did not question the motives of the proprietors who refused sites; they might think they were justified, as members of the Established Church, in endeavouring thus to strengthen that church; but did their Lordships think that any one creature was justified, by the accidental possession of influence, in endeavouring to restrain the religious opinions of his fellow men by such means? Grant this principle, and they opened the door to persecution. Was it not the paramount duty of the MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.—2. Battersea Park; Coal landed proprietors to knit together, as far Whippers (Port of London). Reported. Saint Asaph and Bangor and Manchester Dio ceses. PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Taunton, and its Neigh bourhood, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death. Scotland, and from a great number of other places, praying that a Bill may be passed compensating Proprietors of Lands for the Purchase of Sites for Free Churches -From General Convention of the Royal Burghs of (Scotland). SITES FOR BUILDING CHURCHES IN as they could, all classes of Her Majesty's subjects; and could it be, by refusing the means and opportunities of religious worship, that they were endeavouring to effect that great object? He would ask their Lordships whether such conduct was not calculated to create great discontent and dissatisfaction on the part of persons thus (he would not say persecuted, although it almost amounted to that), prevented from The MARQUESS of BREADALBANE whether it was not calculated to alienate exercising their religious worship; and presented certain petitions complaining of the affections of those conscientious secethe refusal of sites for building Freeders from the Establishment? He would Churches in Scotland. The noble Mar-remind them of a great and noble saying of quess proceeded to say, that the number of petitions he had presented upon this subject amounted to 296, which had been signed by 39,781 persons. The general prayer of these petitions was that "Whereas many congregations of professing Christians are now prevented from building churches by the refusal of the proprietors of land to grant sites in any suitable places, or on any terms for that purpose; may it therefore please a most excellent man, who held high office of property there were great obligations inin the sister country, that in the possession curred as well as rights to be enjoyed, and no man fulfilled his duty as a proprietor unless he observed those obligations to the letter. Such proceedings were, in short, an endeavour to establish a mental slavery more degrading than that of the body, and which might lead to consequences still | prietors of the land. At the same time, he more serious. As a matter of policy, the would express a hope that there might be subject was worthy of consideration. The no necessity for any such interference. He Free Church was now a strong and vigo- trusted, that upon a full consideration of rous body, calculated to promote the reli- the circumstances, and after what the gious and moral improvement of the peo- landed proprietors must have observed of ple; and it should be the policy of the Le- the growing importance of the numerous gislature, and of the Government, and of body from whom these petitions emanated, the landed proprietors in Scotland, rather there would be a disposition on the part of to encourage than to discourage it. The all, but more especially on the part of those noble Marquess then read a statement of great landowners on whom so much defacts respecting the Free Church of Scot- pended, to give that reasonable degree of land, showing that the number of congre- accommodation which they were entitled gations was 816; of ministers, 662; and of to ask for the purpose of public worship in communicants, upwards of 200,000; that conformity with their own creed and opinthe number of churches already erected ions. It was very natural that at the was 600; of manses built, or authorized to period when the disruption first took place, be built, 171; that funds had been sub- there should have been very great hesitascribed for the erection of a college, be- tion to give to the seceders the opportunity sides schools; that a total sum had been of establishing their church; but from the subscribed to the funds of the Free Church moment it became clear that a large prosince the disruption of 1,140,000l., all of portion of the population had formally which, except 150,000l., had been paid up. adopted, and were disposed to adhere to, Their Lordships were, perhaps, aware that the new principles, there could not be any a right hon. Friend of his had introduced a rational objection on the part of landowners Bill into the other House of Parliament to to afford every proper facility. He cerremedy the evils of which these petitioners tainly believed that the unwillingness which complained. That Bill he thought defec- had originally existed was every day dimitive, as it gave too large a discretionary nishing; and he hoped that it would dimipower; and it might have beon improved nish to such a degree as to bring about by making it more general. It merely mutual goodwill, and the satisfaction of granted sites to religious bodies of the the claims of those petitioners, without Christian persuasion, whereas he thought placing Parliament under the necessity of it should comprehend all religions what- adopting the remedy referred to. ever. It also confined the application to Scotland; but he thought it should be general throughout the country, for the evil existed in this country to a considerable extent. It would be most satisfactory to the people of Scotland if his noble Friend, who was the organ of the Government, were to declare his regret, on the part of Government, that any portion of the inhabitants of Scotland should be thus hindered in the free exercise of their worship according to their own forms. He trusted that their Lordships would take into consideration the case of the petitioners, and would be able to provide some means of remedying the great evil and grievance of which they now complained. The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, that although he had not the least objection to the reception of the petitions, he was not prepared to say that he thought any Parliamentary means could at present be devised by which the petitioners and others could be enabled to acquire a right to erect churches wheresoever they thought proper, independent of the will of the pro The DUKE of BUCCLEUCH thought that the noble Marquess had fallen into a mistake as to the state of the case. It would appear, from the statement of his noble Friend, that harshness and tyranny had been displayed by the landed proprietors of Scotland towards the professors of the principles of the new church; but the fact was, that they enjoyed equally with other Dissenters such facilities as it was in the power of landowners to afford in obtaining sites and accommodation for building their churches. The petitioners demanded these sites; but, was it to be said, whether a proprietor liked it or not, that they might seize hold of that site, though not without compensation, which might be most convenient for them, without any reference to the convenience of the owner of the land? That was what was asked. Whatever was said to the contrary, the hostility to the Established Church had not at first even been attempted to be concealed: prudence and discretion had now somewhat moderated their tone; but until it was moderated very great good could not be expected from those who had been so frequently attacked. He need not go very far back for proofs of the hostility of which he spoke; he had only to refer to the files of their own organs-their own newspapers, which were filled with diatribes against the Established Church and its members; and it was not very long since one of the Free Church preachers had openly declared that the Church of Scotland was a great moral nuisance-one which ought to be swept away from the face of the earth. He (the Duke of Buccleuch) did not deny that he had refused many applications for sites; and his reason for so doing was, that he had considered the applications unreasonable. What he complained of was that persons having no earthly connexion with the parish, or even with the district, came on to his estates, exciting the people, raising up for them imaginary grievances, and thus encouraging and inciting ill-feeling against the landlord. Religious distinctions were made the means of severing the interests of employers and employed; and when he found regular relays of ministers of this class of Dissenters coming down to preach doctrines and principles of which such was the effect, when he found them accompanied or followed by laymen from a distance, whose object it was to keep alive the spirit," as they called it, he could not but desire their removal and their absence. He protested against any interference on the part of any man or any body of men between himself and his tenants and labourers; it was a question hetween himself and them, and not between him and strangers, who knew nothing of the parish, and who were only there to foment bad feeling. He entertained the same hope expressed by the noble Marquess, that there would be found no difficulty in arranging matters; but the facility could not be increased so long as he (the Duke of Buccleuch) was made the object of attack, and held up to ridicule and execration from the pulpit. [' [The Marquess of BREADALBANE: That was denied.] It was only denied in part, and the fact was, he thought, as he had stated. The demand which was now made for legislative means to enable them to take sites wherever they pleased, was, in his opinion, most unjust. It was a demand which would never be tolerated in any country or for any sect. Were such a demand made, even for the Established Church, it would be repudiated and treated with scorn in either House of Parliament; and he, for his part could not see that this body in particular of Dissenters were entitled to ask for powers which could only be deemed unconstitutional. The MARQUESS of BREADALBANE would ask the noble Duke if, on a part of his property, the members of the Free Church had not met for worship on a moor; if the noble Duke had not taken legal means to drive them away; whether they did not, at length, take refuge in the public roads; and, whether the Lord's Supper was not about to be administered on a cross-road, when the noble Duke, greatly to his credit-sensible of the inappropriateness of the place-interfered, and allowed them a tent to worship in? Why, knowing these facts, the conduct of landed proprietors amounted almost, if not entirely, to persecution. The possessions of the noble Duke were so vast, that unless he consented to give sites, the Free Church would be unable to obtain sites at all. In the parish of Canobie the noble Duke had offered, instead of what was asked, a site which, if accepted would compel the members of the Free Church to go a distance of five miles to worship; and he (the Marquess of Breadalbane) would ask their Lordships, was that reasonable or just ? On the western coast of Scotland, sites for churches had been obstinately refused, and the inhabitants had at length built and launched an iron church, which was now anchored in one of the bays of the coast. What was this? It was nothing but persecution, for it was a direct interference with the free exercise of religious worship by men who entertained their opinions conscientiously, and whose only fault it was that those opinions were not identical with those of the proprietors of land. Those proprietors had no moral right whatever to exert their influence in such a manner. The DUKE of BUCCLEUCH said, that it was perfectly true he had refused to grant sites for the Free Church in the parishes of Canobie and Sanquhar; and he could not see why, in those parishes, the Free Church people could not be contented with the terms offered to and accepted by other Dissenters. The real truth of the matter in one of those parishes was, that the minister of the place had been particularly unpopular, and as it was understood he was going to remain in the Established Church the people seceded, but, to their great horror, he followed them. Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table. THE INSURRECTION IN GALLICIA PRINCE CZARTORYSKI. LORD BROUGHAM, after giving notice that, on Friday next, he would submit a resolution to their Lordships against the adoption of any measures which, directly or indirectly, were calculated to encourage the African Slave Trade, said, he would take that opportunity of asking a question of the noble Marquess with respect to the proceedings in Gallicia, and the confiscacations in that province of the estates of the nobles. He had great hopes, he might say sanguine expectations, that, as regarded one of these confiscations-of the property of his very old and very dear friend, Prince Czartoryski-the accounts which he had heard would prove to be in the result untrue. He would appeal to the justice and generosity of a just and, generally speaking, humane Government, and to the disposition always found in the Austrian Government not actively to enforce intolerance, for the defence of the Prince; and in his case he (Lord Brougham) hoped there would be no exception to the general mildness of their rule. The ground taken was on the address of Prince Czartoryski to his countrymen in Paris; but which was no ground at all, for the Prince used only those words and those expressions which, in his situation and under the circumstances, he had used, and was justified in using, for years past. He had said that he felt sorrow for the fall of Poland, and gave voice to a hope that a few years would witness the restoration of its independence. He could not, in the position which he filled among his countrymen, have addressed them in any other language; he could not have returned a sharp answer; and there could be no doubt that at the time he so spoke he disapproved as entirely as he (Lord Brougham) disapproved of that insane and inexcusable attempt which had recently been made by the Poles to shake the Austrian Government. There was in this country a great degree of sympathy for the Prince; and it would be very satisfactory if the noble Marquess now, or on a future day, could inform their Lordships as to the truth of what had been stated. The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE concurred in all the sentiments and feelings which his noble and learned Friend had expressed with that forbearance and delicacy which an allusion to such a subject required; and he concurred most especially in what had been said relative to the for tunes of one of the first families in Europe -elevated not less by rank than it was illustrious for virtues which had been displayed alike in prosperity and in adversity. So much he felt bound to say; but with respect to the question as to what information might be in the possession of Her Majesty's Government on this subject, he would, before giving a reply, beg leave to communicate with his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs. House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, July 22, 1846. MINUTES.] NEW WRITS. For Dundalk, v. Thomas Nicholas Redington, Esq., Under Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. NEW MEMBERS SWORN. For Yorkshire (West Riding), Viscount Morpeth.-For Leith, &c., Andrew Rutherfurd, Esq. PUBLIC BILLS-1° Sugar Duties. Reported. Art Unions; Commons Inclosure (No. 2). PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. George Hamilton, from Members of the Bath Church of England Lay Association, for Increasing the Number of Bishops.-From Mayor and Commonalty and Citizens of the City of London, Governors of the Possessions, Revenues, and Goods of the Hospitals of Edward late King of England the Sixth, of Christ, Bridewell, and Saint Thomas the Apostle, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.-By Viscount Sandon, from Merchants, Bankers, Brokers, Shipowners, and other Inhabitants of the Borough of Liverpool, for Equalization of the Duties on Sugar.-By Mr. Wyse, from a great number of places, in favour of the Art Unions Bill. By Sir William Clay, from James Hedgman, William Sowter, and James Esdaile, Proprietors of Public Baths in the Metropolis, and by Mr. Thomas Duncombe, from Joshua and Thomas Watts, of Peerless Pool, City Road, London, against the Baths and Washhouses Bill. - By Sir De Lacy Evans, from Rector, Churchwardens, Overseers of the Poor, and Ratepayers of the Parish of Saint Clement Danes, in Vestry assembled, in favour of the Baths and Washhouses Bill. From Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Liverpool, against the Deodands Abolition (No. 2) Bill. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. On the Motion that the House go into Committee on the Charitable Trusts Bill, SIR G. GREY suggested to the hon. Member for Montrose the propriety of withdrawing the Bill. Last week the House affirmed by the second reading the principle of the measure, which principle was the accountability of persons holding charitable trusts to Parliament, through the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Since the second reading he had received a great number of communications from persons interested in the matter, not offering any objection to the principle of the accountability (on the contrary, they fully approved of it), but urging additions that had not been contem 1363 Lands and Companies {COMMONS} Clauses Consolidation Bill. 1364 LANDS AND COMPANIES CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION BILL. On the Motion for the Second Reading of this Bill, plated by the hon. Member for Montrose, next his Motion for going into Committee and making various suggestions of great on the Bill. weight and importance, which demanded and ought to receive the most serious consideration. The Government desired to devote their best attention to the matter; and his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor would soon have under his consideration another measure, affirming the principle of the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Montrose, but more general in its import, and much more comprehensive in its details. The principle of the Bill at present under consideration having been deliberately recognised by the House, he trusted that his hon. Friend, taking into consideration the lateness of the Session and all the other circumstances of the case, would be induced to withdraw the Bill for the present, or at leat postpone it on the understanding that a measure similar in object, but more comprehensive in detail, would be brought forward by Government at an earlier period next Session. MR. M. GIBSON said, he would take the liberty of suggesting that it would not be wise to commit the House of Commons to the principle of this measure under existing circumstances. A Committee had been appointed, of which the hon. Member for Inverness was chairman, and they had directed their attention to railway matters; therefore until the House was in possession of the evidence taken before that Committee, and the Committee had made a report to the House, it would, he thought, be premature in the House to commit itself to the principle of this Bill. If the hon. Gentleman who had charge of it would consent to a postponement, it would not be necessary to go into the merits. Persons who were well acquainted with MR. HUME, since last week, had re- the subject had come to a conclusion that ceived several communications on the sub- it was a measure which should not be alject of the Bill, all showing the necessity lowed to pass under any circumstances. It of the measure, but all requiring more to contained difficult questions, and several be done than he had contemplated. The provisions which many railway companies only object that he had been desirous of would not be able to comply with, not haveffecting was, that a balance-sheet, show-ing contemplated such matters when they ing the revenue and expenditure on account of these charitable trusts, should be laid before Parliament, thereby affording to that House and the public generally the means of obtaining that information for which they had for many years looked in vain. This was his object; but if it could be satisfactorily proved that it was desirable that more than this should be effected, he would willingly assent, and admit that it would be much more satisfactory to him that Government should take the matter into their own hands and bring forward next Session an extensive measure to meet all the views of the case. If Government would pledge itself to introduce next Session a comprehensive enactment of this description, he would willingly accede to the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet. Under all the circumstances of the case, he would at once consent to postpone the Bill until next Wednesday, and if on that day distinct assurance was given of the Government's intention to bring in a comprehensive measure next Session, he would withdraw the Bill altogether. Order of the Day read pro formá, and Mr. Hume postponed until Wednesday obtained their Acts of Parliament. The MR. HASTIE said, his object was to prevent gambling, and if this Bill were allowed to pass he believed it would do much good by opening the market to real boná fide undertakings. To show the necessity of compelling companies to complete regis |