upon fines of 500l. or 6007.; that the peasants are obliged to work at a distance magistrates and the county should be called from their homes, and whose return to upon to meet this case of dire necessity; their homes would be interfered with, exso that he recommends that the grand jury cept at the risk of apprehension, as being who establishes the inquisition into the discovered out of doors within the forbidden probable guilt of the accused should after- period; but let me remind you that your wards in heavy penalties be compelled to sense of these evils was not so great in reserve upon the petty juries, so as to insure spect to that measure that was passed by convictions, which terror prevents you at- another Administration - let me remind taining now. I ask English gentlemen to you that you then willingly consented to say what they think of a state of society the same provision that is so much obwhich renders it necessary for those who jected to in the present Bill, namely, that usually have discharged the functions of of giving power to the Lord Lieutenant of grand jurors, to discharge now those which, proclaiming a district, and thereby confinup to the present time, have devolved upon ing the parties within it to remain inside a totally different class of society. Did I their houses between sunset and sunrise. not hear the right hon. Gentleman only That was the law of the land under the two years since say it was his advice late Government; and you had it during that witnesses should be induced to give the whole period you were in the Adminisevidence by the assurance that afterwards tration. It was enacted for five years, they and their families would be removed from 1835, and it was continued in full in security to another country than the force until 1841. During that period no scene of their birth; that all their domestic attempt was ever made to repeal it, except relations should be interrupted; and, in once, and that attempt was only supported order to preserve their lives, that a guaran- by three persons independent of the mover. the should be given them for their perma- Amongst the sternest of the opponents to nent provision in some of our colonial pos- such repeal, then, was the hon. Member sessions? And he said, unless you have for Drogheda himself. There was, cerdone that, you can have no hopes of tainly, this distinction between the two getting evidence, and no chance of hav- measures-under the present Bill the ofing a conviction afterwards. Now, that fender will be subject to transportation; was the advice given by the right hon. but the party who offended under the forGentleman two years since, in respect mer measure was liable to fine and imto the state of one of their counties: prisonment. The corpus delicti was, howand what did the hon. Baronet say ever, the same in both. The Lord Lieuwho had moved the Amendment? "That tenant had the same power of proclaiming this Bill be read a second time this districts. [Mr. O'CONNELL: No!] Why, day six months. The hon. Member for he had this power upon the presentment of Drogheda said but a fortnight since, that the grand jury. [Mr. O'CONNELL: That so atrocious were the outrages that were presentment was, however, traversable.] committed-so little respect had the of- I apprehend not, in that case. A civil fenders there for either age or sex, that he presentment I know is traversable; and I believed the national character of the peo- speak with great deference to the hon. ple was altered. Now, these are the ad- Gentleman's high legal attainments and missions which we have received from the information, when I say that it is my imGentlemen who come from Ireland, and pression the presentment under the former who must be cognizant of all the circum- Act was not traversable by law. There is stances of that country, and are able to no analogy whatever between the grand judge whether the existing law gives ade-jury presentments under the ancient prequate protection to the inhabitants. Sir, I scriptive practice, and under a statute of a think that their evidence was at least ma- peculiar nature. But will the right hon. terial as to the statistical statements we Member consent to amend the Bill in this have heard. We have therefore thought way?-will he permit it to pass if the it our duty to propose a measure similar to grand jury be made a necessary prelimithat which was proposed by those who it nary in the proposed measure? No! I appears are now to offer us every opposi-apprehend that he will not consent to do tion. It may be objectionable to have a any such thing-he will not consent to go law which is now designated by the title of into Committee for that purpose. I am the Curfew Bill. You may be able now to now only showing why Government have point out the inconveniences of it where felt it necessary to resort to some extra But people, have produced a corresponding good. I believe that there does pervade amongst the people in the wilds of Connaught, and in Munster, where these measures were more fully carried out, a feeling of grateful acknowledgment towards Her Majesty's Government; and though circumstances have occurred to justify the expectation that there would be some diminution of crime, I should hardly feel myself justified, under the altered appearance of things in Ireland, to accept of that as a reason for abandoning this law, and ordinary measure. On the whole, then, | no doubt be some circumstances to warthe Government have thought the best rant us to withdraw this measure. course they could take was to resort to I do believe that the extraordinary exerthat measure, which, in substance, had re- tions which have been made by the Governceived the previous sanction of the Legis- ment to mitigate the evils arising from the lature, and which the Legislature, for a want of food-the numerous Committees period of five years, had refused to repeal which have been established-the aid —a measure which had produced the most which has been given by every description beneficial effect, without ever having been of force, civil and military, for the purpose once called into action. Now, we cer- of ensuring a proper supply of food-the tainly anticipate the same consequences perfect success which has attended the from the passing of the present Bill, and measure which the Government resorted that the existence of the dormant powers to by the introduction of large quantities of the law may operate now as they ope- of Indian maize-I believe, I say, that rated before; and, considering that there these measures, as might have been exwas the additional provision in it of sub-pected in a generous and kindhearted jecting the particular district to pecuniary penalties for the crimes that may be committed in it, we hope that even though no proclamation be issued under this Bill, still the same results may follow the passing of this measure as followed the enactment of the law of 1835, and that peace will be restored, without subjecting the inhabitants to the inconvenience which such a proclamation must necessarily impose. I am now vindicating the Government for the course which they have taken in reference to this measure. I am not, however, denying to you the perfect right, notwith-permitting this winter to pass over without standing your approval of a Bill of similar taking any other precaution against outtendency, of acting upon your convictions rage, than that which the ordinary law of in declaring that this measure is wholly the country gives us. I deeply regret to unnecessary; and be the political conse- say, however, that there is no such dimiquence what it may of withholding your nution of crime in Ireland. I will take support to this Bill, I shall cast no re- those offences which are called offences of proach upon you for whatever course you an insurrectionary character. I know not may take against it. I think it is your whether I ought to omit the returns of the duty to oppose this Bill, if you really be- minor offences; but still they are evidence lieve it to be unnecessary for the purposes of a disordered and disturbed state of sointended; but it is my duty to vindicate ciety. I will therefore take the offences, the Government, who take a different view of homicide, of firing at the person, of agupon the matter-who have been charged gravated assaults, of assault endangering with the responsibility of protecting life life, of incendiarism, of killing or maiming and property in the kingdom, and of up- cattle, of robbing arms, of appearing armed, holding the law-when we consider that it of the administration of unlawful oaths, of is inefficient to meet the evils which may threatening notices, of attacking houses, arise. I could not perform that duty with- of levelling fences, of malicious injuries to out the sanction of Parliament. When this property, and of firing into dwellings. Bill was introduced at an early period of These are offences which, if they do prethe Session, my right hon. Friend near vail in any country to a great extent, if me went through a detail of the crimes they are habitual, are strong evidence of a that were committed in Ireland-the fre-disordered state of society, of remote and quent murders-the numerous instances permanent acts, of which temporary coerin which the murderers had been per-cion is no permanent remedy; but they mitted to escape. We are now invited may arrive at a height which, if you wish to abandon this Bill because it is said to prevent the paralysation of all law, and that great improvements have taken place secure the means of improvement, you in the social condition of Ireland. Had have no resource but to meet them with a there been this improvement, there would strong hand. What is the case in the five counties which were particularly referred | So that at the end of the year 1846, asto when this Bill was introduced? Observe, suming that these crimes should continue I am replying to your argument, that there to the same extent for the next seven has been an improvement in the state of so- months as they have done for the first five ciety-an unexpected improvement, which months, instead of there being an equal would perfectly justify us in abandoning amount of crime, the numbers would be this Bill. You say that, seeing the dis- swollen from 2025 to 3013 in those four taste of the Irish Members for it, it would counties; and in Leitrim there would be be a grateful concession to their feelings. the reduction from 804 in 1845 to 414 in No one would rejoice more than I should 1846. But let me discard such offences to have the opportunity of making any rea- as levelling fences, giving threatening nosonable concession to the representatives tices, and administering unlawful oaths, of Ireland. I feel the force of their oppo- and compare only the grave offences in the sition to any measure of this kind; but I first five months of 1846, with those of the submit to their deliberate reason whether first five months of 1845. The numbers, if or not the facts which I state would justify I made comparison of the following crimes Her Majesty's Government in withholding-1. Homicide; 2. Firing at the person; this measure from Parliament? They rely 3. Aggravated assault; 4. Assault enupon an improvement in the condition of dangering life; 5. Firing into dwellings— the country. Is there evidence of that will be found to be these:— improvement in the five months of 1846, as compared with five months of 1845? I have before me the returns of the crimes in the five months of the present year; and there should exist in them some proof and evidence of an improvement in the first five months of 1846, as compared with the year 1845; but, in my painful review of the state of the five counties, I regret to find that such is not the case. The offences which we call insurrectionary, in the five counties, stand thus : In Leitrim, I rejoice to say, there has stand thus : Five months Five months of 1845. .... ...... 20 40 of 1846. 28 41 ... 121 53 68 Homicide.... Firing at person Aggravated assault... .... 85 Assault endangering life... 41 Firing into dwellings.... 46 Cen I then say, that there has been any such diminution of crime as would justify the Government in abandoning this Bill? But let the House look at the returns ofaggravated assault, assault endangering life, incendiary fires, robbery of arms, appearing armed, administration of unlawful oaths, threatening letters, malicious injuries to property, firing into dwellings. From 1st January to the latest time, the end of May, 1846, the total was 2,098; and of these there were in the five counties: making 1,188 crimes in five counties, and for these 1,188 crimes there were in 54 cases only committals; and that is the distinction I want to draw. I wish to show that these offences are not committed throughout the whole of Ireland, and that in these five counties, with not more than one-sixth of the population, more than one-half the offences have been committed. You cannot assign any cause for these crimes which is universally applicable; you cannot say that the landlord and tenant question applies peculiarly to these five counties; there is a diseased state of society in particular districts; and it is because this criminality is not universal that your views to be sound and sagacious; but, in the mean time, will you permit these nightly tyrannies to go on? Who were the parties who in the month of March last were returned as murdered? A boy, a labourer, a farmer, a labourer, a poor woman, a justice of the peace, a labourer, a shoemaker, a labourer, a labourer, a farmer, a poor woman, a farmer's daughter. It is of these persons that care is to be taken; and if these individuals amongst this class of persons in the month of March last, lost their lives in Ireland, in how many of these cases of murder or homicide were the parties committed to prison? I ask you what must be the anxiety of those who live in Ireland, when this labourer, this boy, and this woman were murdered, if there these things go on with impunity? and whilst the confidence of the murderer must be increased by the impunity, I ask you what must be the apprehensions of those likely to be the victims? Admitting, then, that you take a sagacious view of the proper, permanent, and remedial measure, I ask you whether, without a prospect of the immediate benefit and operation of that measure you will dispense with this tem we ask for the opportunity of applying a topical remedy. There are 1,188 crimes in these five counties; and I think that one hon. Gentleman, in commenting upon these returns, stated that the columns did not correspond; but I believe I can show the cause of the apparent discrepancy. In the sixth page of the return, towards the middle, there are three different offences set out a demand of arms a robbery of arms, and an aggravated assault-and these probably count as three different crimes in the summary: there is a second item of robbery of arms, which shows that there were four different cases; and in the last case of an aggravated assault, there were no less than four persons assaulted. The consequence is, that if in one column these are entered as one offence, there is a discrepancy between that and the summary. [Mr. REDINGTON: The four names are for one locality, for the same thing done at the same place. Sure there was not four outrages.] I am arguing from the returns; but I apprehend that if there are four different persons assaulted, there are four different offences, though committed at the same time. [Mr. REDINGTON There is but one outrage.]porary precaution, and allow the present Suppose a house were attacked and three persons murdered, surely there would be three murders. [Mr. HAWES But only one outrage.] I do not think that you would satisfy the anxiety of the relatives by telling them, "True it is that there have been three murders, and three men murdered, but there has been only one outrage. [Mr. REDINGTON: I quoted from the abstract the number of outrages, not the number of persons.] If I am in error I am sorry for it; but I merely suggested what appeared to me to account for the discrepancy. With respect to the account of the persons murdered, which for the purposes of comparison is correct, though whether the name of murder applies to all I am not sure. [Mr. O'CONNELL: Mr. Pigot used the term homicide, because the term murder in former returns was incorrect.] I do not rely on the return as showing in every case that there was a person murdered; but in February, 1846, there were 18 cases of homicide or of murder returned, and 26 cases of attempt at murder. In March, 1846, there were 23 murders or homicides, and 14 attempts at murder. You say that we ought to bring in a law which will correct this evil by going to its root. You tell us to amend the law of landlord and tenant. I admit state of things to continue? Will it not impede the success of your remedial measures if you permit these crimes to be attempted, especially when you recollect the effect produced by the existence of a similar law, which was never brought into operation? On a consideration of these facts, Her Majesty's Government have thought it their duty still to press upon the consideration of this House the propriety of passing the second reading of the Bill, with a view to the further consideration of its details in Committee. I know not whether I have anything more to say with regard to the vindication of the Government. I will fatigue the House no further by a reference to statistical details. I have mentioned the admission of hon. Members connected with Ireland, and of the proposals they have made, though they would greatly regret the establishment of any distinction, even in the criminal law between Ireland and England. I give you their evidence, though I shall not have their votes, as not the least important admission of the state of the country, and hardly believe that any one acquainted with the state of Roscommon, Tipperary, Limerick, and Clare, can view it without alarm, or can deny the allegations made by the Government, that some measures of this kind, or of some other, are | I have felt that it was perfectly right that indispensably and immediately necessary those whose confidence I have lost should to restore confidence. I do not say that question the prudence of the course I purwith respect to the administration of the sued. But there are bounds which ought law, but confidence in the security of life. to be observed by every one who respects And here, Sir, I should have been willing the usages of Parliament. You cannot to dismiss all other topics; but I feel it forget that I heard the noble Lord presume incumbent on me not to sit down without not only to question the prudence of our noticing the speech which was made on the conduct, but to arraign the motives of Her night when this subject was last under the Majesty's Government-you cannot forget consideration of this House by the noble that I heard the noble Lord state, not Lord the Member for King's Lynn. I do merely that we despaired of ultimately sucdeeply regret, not for my own sake, but ceeding in carrying that measure (the Profor the sake of the character of this House tection of Life Bill)-but he presumed to -I do deeply regret that during this Ses- say that we were not in earnest, nor honest sion there has been, for the first time, a in our attempts to carry it. Now, I think, license assumed which is, I think, injurious that to question motives in this way is unto the cause of legitimate debate. Sir, I parliamentary. The House will remember may refer to the course which I have taken that I heard the noble Lord speaking of during my Parliamentary life for five and those with whom I am connected by official thirty years, for the purpose of showing ties of those who acting from as pure and that at least my example cannot have jus- conscientious a sense of public duty as ever tified any one in the license now taken. influenced any representative in this House, Sir, I have sat in Parliament in times of have given me their support during the great excitement, and I believe it to be progress of my late measures-that I possible to conduct the freest discussion in heard the noble Lord characterise them this House, and that every latitude can be as "hired Janisaries and renegades" given for censure either in the free discus-gentlemen engaged in public service sion of public subjects, or by the condem--gentlemen exercising their free right nation of questionable acts of the Govern- of judgment on public matters-that I ment; but if the language used by the heard the noble Lord characterize them noble Lord be Parliamentary, then I beg as hired Janisaries and renegades. [A leave to say that the license must not be VOICE: Paid Janisaries.] And this, by one-sided. Your sense of justice will in- a noble Lord who, without being quesduce you to give to all parties the same free- tioned, had exercised the perfect which he dom of speech and of discussion: you will possesses to vote according to his sense of not refuse to extend to those who feel them- public duty. I think the noble Lord voted selves calumniated and maligned, the same last year against restrictions on factory lalicense which you have given to their as- bour, and he voted for them this year-but sailants. And, Sir, if in commenting on without being questioned as to the honesty those attacks, though I hope to maintain of his motives. I think the noble Lord was the course which has hitherto prevailed prepared, although he denied the extent of with me, and though I hope to respect the the famine in Ireland-although he thought usages which public men have hitherto ad- that it would not diminish but aggravate hered to in the course of public and even the false alarm, yet the noble Lord was acrimonious discussions-yet if I should prepared to support by far the most absurd forget them in commenting upon some of and impracticable measure I ever heard of, the observations made by the noble Lord, namely, to permit the importation of foreign I trust that you will not forget the provo- grain only into Ireland-that permission cation I have received, and that you will not to extend to England. The noble Lord, not forget that I, in my place as Prime I believe, voted for the first reading of this Minister of this country, am charged with Bill upon the ground that no man could the proposal and the conduct of more im- safely go to church-that old women going portant measures than have ever perhaps to church were subjected to constant danbeen submitted to the Legislature of this ger-that women with children in their country. You cannot forget that I have arms were assassinated, and that there was not sought to defend myself without great no security for life and property; and he provocation, though I hope I shall do so and his friends were determined that this in that temper which is certainly becoming license should no longer be tolerated under in a public man whose acts are impugned. the name of British and constitutional li |