whether it was the intention of Government to adhere to them? If Government were prepared to pass the resolutions as they now stood, the House was prepared to go along with them. SIR G. CLERK stated that it was his intention to adhere to these resolutions. DR. BOWRING pointed out the incon the dignity of the House. With respect to the first resolution, he wished to know whether the Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton branch, which connected itself with the Great Western at Oxford, would come within the exception referred to in that resolution? He had a difficulty of comprehending this part of the resolution. What was the meaning of the second ex-veniences of two gauges in the South Wales ception referred to in the resolution? Were district, where the broad gauge was now not those lines alluded to already sanc- prevalent. tioned by Parliament? He hoped that these resolutions would be withdrawn, with a view of further considering them. MR. HAWES said, the resolutions were carefully prepared by the Board of Trade, and in such a way as to render them acMR. J. E. DENISON thought there ceptable to both parties. It was, therewas much inconvenience suffered in conse- fore, highly desirable, after the consideraquence of this matter having been so long tion they had received, they should be delayed. He was of opinion that the adopted as they stood. It was very reHouse should not separate without affirm-markable no hon. Member had spoken in ing the general principles on which the favour of the Amendment of the hon. MemHouse should for the future proceed. He ber for Montrose, who appeared on this understood that the right hon. Gentleman question to have deserted his old friends, proposed to withdraw the last three resolu- and to have taken a particularly narrowtions. In such case there would remain, of gauge view of the subject. It was errocourse, only the first two for present consi-neous to suppose that no benefit had arisen deration. He thought the words "or the from the existing difference in the gauges. Board of Trade," ought to be inserted Those differences had given rise to consiafter the word "Legislature." With that derable competition between the lines on slight alteration, he thought they might which the different gauges existed. The proceed to pass the first two resolutions; result had been, a very great improvement but if the last four only were to be pro- in the machinery, as well as a great increase ceeded with, he would affirm the principle in railway facilities generally. As to the contained in the first. suggestion which had been made for the SIR R. PRICE expressed his satisfac-appointment of a board to decide on the tion that the Board of Trade had laid down a proposition for preserving the broad gauge, and hoped that the principle would be extended hereafter. MR. B. DENISON expressed his ish that some resolution should be come to by Government for the decision of the Committee which was now sitting. MR. W. R. COLLETT said, that it was his intention to vote in favour of the Resolutions of the Government, as it was the wish of the railroad world that such resolutions should be passed. He hoped that Government would do something to settle the question of the gauges. MR. HAYTER wished the resolutions to be carried out to their full effect, and hoped that the same attention would be bestowed on the same branch lines as had been given to grand trunk lines which had been constructed in the south part of the kingdom. MR. F. SCOTT trusted that there would be no alteration in the resolutions without full time being given for their consideration; and he, therefore, wished to know He gauge question, he was not disposed to He COLONEL ANSON objected to the broad and narrow gauge lines being laid down on any railway unless the two lines were kept quite distinct. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON called the attention of the right hon. Baronet the Vice President of the Board of Trade to a lows: "Motion made, and Question proposed, That it is the opinion of this House, that, in order to complete the general chain of narrow gauge communication from the north of England to the southern coasts, and to the Port of Bristol, any suitable measures should be promoted to form a narrow gauge link from Gloucester to Bristol, and also from Oxford to Basingstoke, or by any shorter route connecting the proposed Rugby and Oxford Line with the South Western Railway." report made by General Pasley, which con- I was put on the original resolution, as foltained a plan laid down by Captain Powell, of the Guards, to obviate the inconvenience of the break of gauge. He hoped that report would be presented to the House. The transfer of passengers from one line to another was not the great inconvenience arising from the break of gauge; the great inconvenience was, the transfer of goods. Now, he believed that Captain Powell had suggested a very ingenious method by which goods might be transferred from the trucks suitable to one line to the trucks suitable to another with very great facility. Such a plan was very important, and he thought it would be well if its details were laid before the House. MR. HUME was happy that he had elieited so much information, and he would not give the House the trouble of going to a division; but, in order to have his opinion on the records of the House, he would not withdraw his Motion, but allow the House to deal with it as they thought proper. Amendment negatived. First Resolution, with an Amendment to insert the words "South Wales after the words "Great Western," agreed to. On the Second Resolution being proposed, MR. J. E.DENISON said, there had been a clear understanding that, the first resolution being agreed to, the others should not be pressed. Many Gentlemen had away under that impression; he must, therefore, oppose proceeding further with them upon that occasion. gone It VISCOUNT PALMERSTON objected to the wording of the second resolution. was, and would be, inoperative; it could never carry out the object it was intended to effect, and, consequently, it would expose that House to the contempt of the public. The resolution would be wholly useless unless its provisions were carried out into an Act. After a desultory conversation, SIR R. PEEL suggested that the resolution should run thus:: "It is the opinion of this House that provision ought to be made by law for preventing the directors of railway companies from altering the gauge of their railway without the consent of the Legislature." The suggestion was assented to, and the resolution so modified was adopted. On the Third Resolution being put, several Amendments were successively moved and withdrawn, and ultimately the question. It being then objected to, the debate. was adjourned. House adjourned at a quarter to Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, June 17, 1846. MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS-3o. and passed. Administra tion of Criminal Justice. PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from an immense number of Places, complaining of Refusal to grant Sites for the Building of Churches for the Free Church of Scotland.-By Sir John M'Taggart, from Inhabitants of the Parish of Portpatrick, for the introduction into all Railway Bills of such Provisions as may appear sufficient for securing the Observance of the Sabbath according to the Commandment.-From Proprietors in, and Inhabitants of, the City of Dublin and Neighbourhood, against the Places of Worship, &c. Sites (Scotland) Bill. -By Mr. Philip Howard, from Secular Clergymen and Laymen of the Town of Maryport and its Vicinity, professing the Roman Catholic Religion, in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.-By Mr. Colquhoun, from Rural Deans and Clergy of the Rural Deaneries of Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke-upon-Trent, in the County of Stafford, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.-By Mr. Hope Johnstone, and Mr. Lockhart, from a great number of places, against the Abolition of the existing Religious Tests in the Universities of Scotland.-By Mr. Deedes, Mr. George Palmer, and Mr. Robert Palmer, from several places in the Counties of Kent, Essex, and Berks, for rating Owners of Small Tenements to the Poor Rates in lieu of Occupiers.-By Mr. Milner Gibson, from Owners of Houses and Small Tenements in the Borough of Manchester, and by Mr. Robert Palmer, from Owners of Tenements of Small Value in the Parish of Wokingham, against the Rating of Tenements Bill.-By Sir George Grey, from Parochial and other Clergy of the Metropolis, and from Bankers, Merchants, Traders, and others connected with the Commercial Pursuits of the City of London, for promoting the Establishment of Public Baths and Washhouses.-By Captain Pechell, from Robert Blythe, heretofore Assistant Clerk to the Commissioners of the late Property Duties and Assessed Taxes for the District of Woodbridge, in the County of Suffolk, complaining of Injury inflicted on him by the Crown, through the Instrumentality of the Solicitor to the late Board of Taxes, and praying for Inquiry. -By Mr. Young, from Clerks of Petty Sessions of the County of Cavan, for Alteration of Law respecting Clerks of Petty Sessions (Ireland). By Sir Robert Ferguson, from Members of the Board of Guardians of the Londonderry, for Extension to Ireland of the Death by Accidents Compensation Bill.— From Masters, Wardens, and Councils of the several Chartered Trades Guilds of the City of Dublin, against the Abolition of the Guilds of Dublin.-By Mr. Bailey, and Mr. Robert Price, from several places in the Counties of Monmouth and Hereford, for Repeal or Alteration of the Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act. By Sir John Yarde Buller, from Ratepayers of Buckfastleigh, in the County of Devon, and by General Lygon, from Board of Guardians of the Martley Union, Schoolmasters within the Presbytery of Penpont, and from NAVY CIVIL DEPARTMENT. On the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Navy Civil Departments Bill, steam vessels in the navy, that every Member of the House of Commons should have full information on that subject. When he first moved for those returns, he was met by the First Lord and the Secretary of the Admiralty with the statement, that, with reference to the public service, it was improper to give those returns, which would be accessible to Foreign Powers. But did not the Secretary possess the fullest information as to the state of the French navy? Of course the Secretary had a list of the steam vessels in the French service; and he verily believed that the French Government knew that day more about the state of the English steam navy than the House of Commons. An incorrect return had been made. He would not call it a false return, as a noble Lord on the other side of the House had styled it some time ago. What he wanted to know was, not the new scale of arrange SIR C. NAPIER called the attention of the House to the state of the administration of the Navy. He had repeatedly urged on the House the necessity of having naval men and not civilians at the Admiralty. He had also often called the attention of the House to the mode in which our ships were constructed; but he had always been met with an allegation that he was interfering with the Prerogative; and so they had gone on from bad to worse, because the Admiralty would not listen to the sug-ment, but the position of the steam navy gestions of any persons who were not in at the present moment, in the event of a their own department. On foreign sta- war. He wanted to know the strength of tions, where the interference of the Admi- the guns, and other particulars; but these ralty in petty details could not take effect, had all been suppressed in the returns. It the ships were much better worked. The was true that the Secretary of the Admihon. and gallant Member proceeded to ralty had made a supplementary return; complain of the appointment of Surveyor but he (Sir C. Napier) felt that he must of the Navy. His having built a ship the make out a statement for himself. Beginmerits of which were very doubtful, was ning with the steam frigates, he begged to no qualification for that post. Indeed, un-refer, in the first place, to the Penelope, less a man had been bred in a dockyard, which he had last year designated "the and was well acquainted with all the de- porpoise ;' she seemed as if she was tails, he would not be fit for such a posi- always under water; and whoever recomtion, however clever he might be as amended that she should be cut down ought scientific man. He denied that the experi- to have previously entered into calculations ments made in shipbuilding had been suc- for the purpose of ascertaining whether cessful. He denied, too, that the late she could carry the weights which she had trials afforded any fair test of the relative to carry. Her main-deck guns were only merits of the old and new system of ship- 4 feet 11 inches from the water when she building; for the ships were not fairly had 500 tons of coals on board; and she weighted, and their respective merits re- could carry only 9 days' supply of coals. mained still an open question. He was The Terrible had no stern ports at all till very much disposed to question the accu- he had himself pointed out the defect. racy of the returns which had been made When the stern ports were supplied, they on his Motion. The expense of docking were made in a part of the vessel where at Devonport, for instance, was stated at stern ports were never intended to be, and, 831.; but various items which ought to in consequence, as regarded the guns, have been enumerated had been omitted. there was not sufficient power of elevation. He did think the Admiralty had not acted Instead of its being practicable to elevate properly towards the House of Commons. the guns eight, or nine, or ten degrees, they The helter-skelter way in which they had could be elevated only 13 degree. The Regone on constructing ships was owing to tribution could point one gun forward and the Neptunes at the Admiralty, as Lord one aft; she could also take two of her St. Vincent styled them; and millions broadside guns and point them forward; would have been saved to the country if a so could the Terrible. Why did not the different system had been adopted. He return state so? But he did not want a had moved for a return relative to the return of the broadside guns that might be It could pointed forward or aft, but of those which correct their error at once. might be fired right ahead and right aft. be done; Mr. Seaward, in the steamer There was a still more serious matter. built by him (Sir Charles Napier), had The Terrible was a vessel of 1,840 tons, succeeded in placing the steam-box under but carried only 550 tons of coal; that was water; and it ought to have been done to say, eight days' coal in a steam frigate fifteen years ago. Then with respect to almost as big as a line of battle ship. cutting down ships, which was an acknowThe Retribution, of 1,641 tons, carried ledgment they did not know how to build only 540 tons of coal, and the Vulture car- them, they had since 1800 cut down eight ried only 420 tons of coal. Here were three-deckers into 80-gun ships, because those vessels built for frigates carrying only they were so excessively crank; thirteen eight days' coal. He asked why when two-deckers had been cut down to frigates. these vessels carried so few guns, they did When the first one or two were cut down, not call them by their proper names- he had not much to say about it; but after steam corvettes? If there was a war, there finding from experience that they could would be French steam frigates mounting not stow their water, provisions, and men, fourteen guns; and what was likely to be was it wise or proper to go on, and cut down the result if they fell in with vessels which thirteen? After it was proved to demonwere nothing more than steam corvettes? stration that our 46 and 42-gun frigates He maintained that there was not one of were not fit to fight the American frigates, them at the present moment that was de- they went on, and after 1815 built fortyserving of the name of a man-of-war. No five of that description. And now the attention had been paid by the Admiralty, Admiralty were cutting them all down into the Surveyor of the Navy, or the Inspector corvettes-why was that? Surely 42-gun of Steam Machinery, to placing the en- frigates were better than 21-gun corvettes. gines and boilers in a proper manner. All He had moved for a return of the expense of the steam-boxes were five or six feet above cutting them down, and here was another the water; every one must see that if, in proof of the way in which the House was action, a single twelve or twenty-four treated in its returns; the Admiralty said pounder struck the steam-box, every man it " had no means of ascertaining the exbelow must be destroyed-must be boiled pense of cutting down" these vessels. to death or fried to a cinder. Let the Ad- Now, he knew they had the power of ascermiralty try it; he would give the Board taining the expense of cutting down every any one of their steamers; let them go ship. The bulwarks of these corvettes down into the engine room under water, were so low, that if any one who had been and let him (Sir C. Napier) take a gun- in action would tell him that the men boat and fire a twelve-pound carronade could stand to their quarters so exposed, shot through the steam-box, the First he would say he knew nothing about it. Lord of the Treasury might make out new When he was a young man he commanded patents for fresh Lords of the Admiralty a frigate that was very high out of the as soon as he liked, for none of them would water, and he had the hammocks taken ever come on deck again. In case of a down from the nettings; afterwards, when war, which might take place to-morrow, in action on the coast of Calabria, the the whole steam fleet would be sent to sea; musket balls flew about them pretty thick, the country would expect great things from and he assured them the hammocks were the commander; with a force of 10,000 or all stowed as usual the day afterwards. A 15,000 men it would expect the war to be large number of ships had had their sterns put an end to in three months; but the altered, and it was said there was no way very first shot that went through one of of ascertaining the expense of it; yet the these steam-boxes would destroy every Admiralty had made a return of such an man below; it would be impossible to pre-expense two years before, and were pervent it. It had happened once in the fectly able to do it at the present moment. river, and every one was scalded to death. In the same way they said they could not There was no earthly means of escape. If ascertain the expense of altering the masuch a thing happened, they could not ex-gazines; yet they had given a return of pect to get a single engineer to serve on board these vessels. It was the bounden duty of the Admiralty to ascertain whether these vessels were fit for war or not; if they were not, they should that expense last year. They had an immense list of new ships, besides those on the stocks: what was the use of going on year after year building such enormous ships? At the present moment it was ships, with one or two exceptions, had been built by the Surveyor to the Navy, and it had, therefore, been impossible to avoid making some of those errors which he (Sir C. Napier) had pointed out. He should show an instance of gross ignorance. A frigate called the Fox had been given to be built to a Mr. White; that gentleman did not know much about gunnery, and he said, "I'll make her sail, but I can't answer for what she'll do with her guns;" and so it turned out that when a trial was made, the Fox could not point her guns. But no attention was paid to that circumstance; and afterwards, when the Amphion was building at Woolwich, it was directed that she should be constructed with the same bows as those of the Fox; her original bow was removed, and the new one put up at an expense of 6,650l., and the same defect then appeared in the Amphion as had before appeared in the Fox. Then, to make bad worse, they made a steamer of her; and to give space for the engines she was deprived of the whole of her main deck, and various other alterations, which produced great inconvenience, were effected. All that was sought for by this change would have been gained had she been left as at first, in cases of necessity to be taken in tow by a steamer. The very doubtful whether a few years hence it would not be necessary to give over building large ships altogether: he did not mean to say the Admiralty should not keep up a certain number; but if they had fifty sail of the line, and the slips full besides, it was more than they wanted, and more than they could possibly man. Every year the estimates for building ships increased; for last year the estimate was 1,300,000l., this year it was 1,600,000. He could not consent to such an estimate again unless their system was changed. He believed the errors the Admiralty had fallen into arose entirely from the construc tion of the Board. The right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) added one Lord to it, and divided its business into five or six departments. The First Lord took all the patronage that he believed was his department; another had the building of all the ships under his control; another the stores; another the victualling and medical department. Now, so immense a labour as attending to the building of all the ships of the navy was totally impossible for any man to perform; the best excuse for the gallant Officer who had charge of that department was to say he could not attend to all its duties. The consequence was, the business was left to the Surveyor of the Navy, who had gone on upon his own sys-gun-ships which they called block-ships tem at an enormous expense, without a bit had been constructed also on a very bad of improvement. He had had the con- principle; they would not, after all, sail struction of a vessel himself, and it had more than five knots an hour; and they occupied all his time and attention; he had would have been just as efficient if left to consulted builders, captains, officers expe- be towed by steamers. He thought he rienced in steam ships, and engineers. had now pointed out many of the errors Had the gallant Officer ever brought such committed by the Board of Admiralty: men together to consult upon any one he was not alluding to the gallant Offpoint? If there was so much trouble in cer (Sir G. Cockburn) in particular; the building one ship, what must be the task system was a bad one, and had been of the officer who had charge of all the the same from time immemorial. He had navy? This was the cause of the inferiority been anxious to see a change in that of our steam navy to private and merchant Board; and when it had been changed, steamers. There was not a builder in it had been his wish to see it divided, as Glasgow, or the river, who would not pro- in the Ordnance, into different departments. duce better steamers than were to be found That was the object of his present Bill. in the navy. The Cunard steamers sailed It was of little use for him to speak of the to Halifax and the West Indies in all sea-propriety of a naval Lord being made First sons, and carried coals enough to cross the Lord-it was all nonsense to expect anyAtlantic with cargo and an immense num- thing of the kind; for there were always too ber of passengers; the Scotch and Irish many civilians who must have precedence. boats sailed winter and summer; but the It was his object that one of the Lords should moment the Admiralty sent a squadron to have the entire management of the docksea, the steamers had to put back into yards; that another should be at the head port perfect wrecks! This arose from no- of the medical and victualling department. thing but ignorance, downright ignorance, Such had been his opinion; but the right and giving the building of the vessels en-hon. Gentleman, it was supposed, knew a tirely to one man. Every one of these great deal better, and the Admiralty re |