what wider departure from the principles of the Constitution. He fairly said to the noble Lord, that if it should be his fortune to be in the House at that period, and the noble Lord were to come down with a case as satisfactory, or rather as unsatisfactory and lamentable as the present case, for a measure involving even a more large departure from the principles of the Constitution, the noble Lord would find in him a strong bias in its favour. If the noble Lord were to propose now, as a substitute for the present measure, a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, he should be disposed to enter upon a consideration of it with somewhat of a bias in its favour; and he should not hesitate briefly to explain his reasons for it. He believed that the crimes which they were now seeking to prevent, were mainly committed in carrying out the edicts of secret associations in Ireland; and he believed that the objects of those associations were neither very numerous, nor altogether impossible to be detected; and he believed, though he would name no names, that there were individuals who, if they were entrusted by Parliament and by the Lord Lieutenant with moderately restricted powers, would sweep the district, within a very few hours, of those who were the cause of these disturbances, and would thus remove the incubus, the main root of the evil, which strangled every measure of improvement, and set at defiance the ordinary powers of law. That was his reason for saying that if the noble Lord--he was sure he would do it with great reluctance but if he should find it necessary, as a matter of duty, to come down to that House and demand the powers which were now asked by his right hon. Friend; and if he were to show as good reasons for it, he would support the noble Lord as he supported the present measure, which was only an imitation of Bills passed by former Govern-manded by one of the very best officers. ments, and which ought not to be rejected, therefore, on this occasion by the House. But the noble Lord had brought forward another charge, and one of a more serious nature, against Her Majesty's Ministers, and which, they would give him leave to say, involved a considerable fallacy. He argued from England to Ireland-an old method of argument; and perhaps some hon. Members might not think him very complimentary to Ireland if he were to say that it was a fallacy. But when the noble Lord argued from the events of 1842 in Lancashire to the case of Ireland, he thought that was a fallacy. He trusted the Irish Members would not think he meant anything injurious to that country in saying so, but he must contend that the circumstances were totally different. As the noble Lord the Member for Lincolnshire said, how would you in England like such a restrictive Bill? He said whether as an Englishman or an Irishman, a Japanese or a New Zealander-he would dislike it exceedingly. But before he would argue thus, he must suppose that there were circumstances in Lincolnshire which he hoped never would exist there. But the noble Lord the Member for London had not only argued from Lancashire to Leitrim; he had argued from Leitrim to Roscommon; and in doing so, said he was in favour of that military policy which had been so much disapproved of by the hon. Member for Lambeth. He said to the Government, by your own confession you have covered Leitrim with soldiers, and by so doing you have put down, at least you have diminished, the amount of outrage in that country. Now, in the first place, the noble Lord, before he brought forward that argument, should have considered what they were doing in pursuing this system over an area of such an extent, and with such a population as the other four counties. The population of the whole. five counties is more than one-sixth of the whole population of Ireland, while Leitrim is less than one-ninth of the population of the five counties. Therefore, he thought it was a fallacy unworthy the attention of the House, to suppose that they could in these five districts, large mountain districts, do what they had been able to do in the flat and comparatively open district of Leitrim. He had received information how the effectual acting of the soldiery had been accomplished. An armament had been sent to that part of the country, com Some two-thirds of the force was in a district surrounded by the river Shannon. They could not have been equally efficient in other parts. The probability would have been, that in other parts the forces would have been diverted, and that at least 10,000 men would have been required to do what a much smaller body had performed. There therefore could be no tenable comparison drawn between the state of, and the manner of dealing with, these several counties in Ireland, and the disturbed districts alluded to in England. Equally unfounded was the statement that the means now proposed to be applied had not been enabled to speak a second by the Government were inapplicable. To the noble Lord opposite he would say this, that, supposing the evils found at the present period in Ireland continued, even with the spirit and good will of the noble Lord and his party to remove them, he would tell that noble Lord that they were not connected either with politics or religion, but with social evils not easily removed. It was in no way uncomplimentary to the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), and to those with whom the noble Lord acted, to say that even if, in the event of a change of Government, they were to occupy their former position, they might find it a matter of no little difficulty, despite their abilities and good intentions, to eradicate these social and deep-rooted evils. These evils, it had been truly stated, were connected neither with the political nor religious condition of the people. They seemed to be part and parcel of the existing social system; and it was, therefore, of slight consequence, in this instance, whether the Government appeared, through its measures, popular or unpopular. They could never avoid the necessity of having recourse to such a Bill as that which had been brought before the House, and having recourse to such a power as that Bill gave. He would now allude to a matter which perhaps took somewhat of a personal character. He had listened to the speeches of some hon. Gentlemen, in the course of this debate, with considerable concern; but the recent portions of it had been conducted in so temperate a tone that he would consider himself unjustified in introducing, at that moment, anything like acrimony into the discussion. He certainly did regret, as, no doubt, did many others, that in commenting upon this Bill expressions had been used somewhat passing the ordinary usages of debate; and his regret was founded in a belief that the opinions held in opposition to his own, could not, by possibility, be enforced by a recourse to such tactics as those which seemed to have been adopted. He must be permitted to mention his extreme and unaffected sorrow, that, in this age, any difference in political sentiments should have had a tendency to interrupt the dignity of discussion or the warmth of personal regard. Individual sacrifices were, assuredly, to be made for public considerations; but he could not for his own part see that in such a sacrifice there was involved any necessity of depart-ordinate servants of the Crown, who were ing from customary courtesy. The views of the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck), who paid for their services. Persons supported Governments with profit certainly, but 66 rene HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] Friday, June 19, 1846. PUBLIC BILLS.-10. Judgment Creditors. Reported. Corn Importation. 3. and passed. Real Property Conveyance; 'Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment; Commons Inclosure Act Amendment. with honesty, and purity of intention, | at that late hour of the night he should though their sentiments might change. It trouble the House further upon any subwas not known how soon the noble Lord ject, but he could not avoid alluding to the might rally his Friends round the camp topic on which he had troubled the House. kettle of a Whig Administration; and it was Before he sat down, he would just say, in best not now to abuse a class of men with reference to the measure on which they whom the noble Lord might soon be united. were called to give judgment, that it was Whoever stood in such a position would not not intended, or brought forward, as a rightly be regarded as Janisaries," nor cure for the evils of Ireland, but as a would the head of any Government, like means of relieving a district from a temthe Sultan Mahmoud, attempt to get rid of porary state of things with which it was them. But other words had been used, afflicted. The circumstances of the counand perhaps applied to himself. He did try had been fully and ably examined, not mean to say that he felt any imputa- without favour or affection; and he, for tion on his character by what had been one, as an English Member of that House, said. No man could, perhaps, assume a should vote against the Amendment, and position that was unimpeachable; and, in a so forward the Bill into Committee. certain sense, he thought the word " Debate again adjourned. gade," though he had uttered his opinion, House adjourned. did not apply to him. But he was not aware what meaning the noble Lord had attributed to the term. He hoped, however, the noble Lord would recollect that individuals might be led to a right, though different, conclusion, rapidly and steadily. If he had earned the name of " renegade' at all, he had done so in consequence of a speech made by him at the last election, in which he had said he could no longer support the old provisions with respect to the importation of grain. He did not, however, pledge himself to do this or that, either to the noble Lord or any other man. He had purchased no votes by what he had said; indeed, on the contrary, he believed he had lost votes by the course he had taken. He had thought at the time the corn question was a thorny" question, and he had purposely said but little on the subject. He was of opinion that before the noble Lord used expressions of this character, he should recollect that Gentlemen were returned to that House surrounded by various circumstances. It might be well in periods of tranquillity to avoid any particular statement; but allusions to the course of events could not be avoided in times of excitement, when surrounded by a struggling and expanding population, and the question happened to be, how that population should be provided A man with these considerations pressing heavily upon him, might arrive at a different conclusion than the noble Lord under the position in which he found himself placed for judgment. Now, in what he had offered to the House on this matter, he did not wish to exempt himself from the onus felt by other Gentlemen with whom he acted. He was not aware that with food. 66 PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Bath Church of England Lay Association, for the Encouragement of Schools in connexion with the Church Education Society. By the Bishop of Exeter, from Norfolk, and a great number of other places, against the proposed Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.-By the Duke of Richmond, from Whitchurch, for Repeal of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.-From Parochial Authorities of Saint Bride, Fleet Street, praying that a Bill may be passed to restrain all unnecessary Sunday Trading. By Lord Campbell, from Penicuick, and other places, for compensating Proprietors of Lands for the Purchase of Sites for Free Churches (Scotland).-From Liverpool, and Kirby Kendal, for Repeal of the Maynooth College (Ireland) Act.-By the Bishop of Norwich, from Heytesbury, and several other places, for the Better Observance of, and for the Prevention of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on, the Sabbath.-By the Earl of Radnor, from the Overseers of the Parish of Saint Andrew, Holborn, for the Establishment of Public Baths and Washhouses. THE EPISCOPAL BENCH. EARL FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from an individual clergyman, vicar of a place in Oxfordshire, expressing disproval of the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor; praying for a new division of ecclesiastical provinces and dioceses; proposing to relieve the bishops from their present onerous duties of attendance in Parliament, and to confine them to their more appropriate functions; also to diminish their incomes, now inconveniently large for the pastors of the Church, so that the whole expense of the episcopate might be reduced from 163,000l. to 80,0007. The noble Earl observed, EARL FITZWILLIAM was of opinion that the number of bishops should be increased to forty; but that the existing ecclesiastical revenues were quite sufficient to provide suitable salaries for them all. that he wished to see the number of bishops | careful deliberation. The increase of the largely increased, and on that ground he population did no doubt render necessary had always objected to the union of the a corresponding increase in the number of sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. The ne- bishops, and he certainly did not think that cessary consequence of a large increase the members of that body were overpaid. in their number would be, that they could not all sit in that House. He was favourable to a diminution of the incomes of individual bishops, though not to a decrease of the entire charge of the episcopate. He recommended the petition as well worthy the consideration of the House, and more particularly of the right reverend Bench. He was persuaded that the time would come when it would be necessary, not perhaps to carry out all the details of the plan proposed by the petitioner, but to increase the Episcopal staff. any EARL FITZWILLIAM thought such incidental discussions very useful, as they accustomed the House to meet those questions. Petition to lie on the Table. The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH said, it was to the last degree inconvenient and inexpedient to discuss one of the greatest constitutional and religious questions which could be brought before their Lordships on such an occasion as the present. If the noble Earl thought it would be advantageous to introduce any alteration into the The BISHOP of EXETER had heard existing Establishment, it would be far with great satisfaction almost everything better for him to bring the subject before that had fallen from the noble Earl. He their Lordships in the shape of some dethought it was the duty of the Legislature finite proposition, upon which he would to take care that that most crying want-have an opportunity of ascertaining the the paucity of bishops in this country-be opinion of the House. very soon supplied. The question whether additional bishops should sit in that House, was, in his opinion, a matter, he would not say of indifference, but at all events, it was a matter of minor importance compared with the question of an increase of the present number. In a country like England, in which the Church was recognised as an essential part of the Constitution, it was absolutely necessary that there should be an Episcopate adequate to the discharge of its high and sacred duties, and commensurate with the demands on its superintendence. He, however, did not wish to see any increase in the general episcopal income, which productive as it ought to be, and, he thought, would be in lay hands, was in itself quite sufficient to maintain a much larger number of bishops than the present number. With respect to the new bishops sitting in the House of Lords, he had very little inclination of opinion to the one side or the other. That appeared to him to be a secondary consideration; but he believed that it would be a great misfortune to the State, as well as to the Church, if the bishops, the representatives of our National Church, were excluded from Parliament. He should merely add, that he hoped the noble Earl would introduce some measure for the purpose of increasing the number of bishops. LORD BROUGHAM thought that the present was a very great constitutional question, which ought to receive the most THE CANADIAN DESPATCHES. LORD LYTTELTON said, he had not been in the House the other evening when the noble Duke on the cross-benches (the Duke of Richmond) had adverted to the recent despatch of Lord Cathcart, and to the answer to that despatch from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies, both of which documents had been laid on the Table of the House; but, according to the report of what had passed on that occasion, the noble Duke said that if he were Lord Cathcart, he should have been very indignant if the first notice he had of that answer was seeing it in the columns of a newspaper. He Lord Lyttel ton) did not know if the noble Duke meant to imply by that expression, that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies had had anything to do with the insertion of that document in the newspapers; but whether or not, his right hon. Friend wished him to deny in the most explicit manner that he knew anything whatever of the matter. Indeed, the Papers had been laid on the Table on the 4th instant, and appeared in the Times on the 9th, so that there had been time enough to procure them in the interval. He denied in the strongest possible manner, on behalf of his right hon. Friend, that he had anything to do with their insertion in the newspaper. country returned their representatives to Parliament for the great object of maintaining protection to themselves as growers of corn, and to the other branches of domestic industry. They could not blame the farmers because some of these representatives had either been seduced or con The DUKE of RICHMOND really did not see how the case was altered by what they had heard. All that he had stated had been that he should have felt very indignant, were he Lord Cathcart, had he seen the despatch from the right hon. Gen-verted to hold other views than those for tleman the Secretary for the Colonies, in answer to his own, in the columns of a newspaper before he had received the original. That such had been actually the case was more than probable; and he meant to say that this despatch would not have been laid on the Table if the Secretary for the Colonies had been in the House of Commons. He believed it to be quite unusual to lay the copy of a despatch on the Table under the circumstances, and had it happened in his case he should have been very indignant. LORD LYTTELTON admitted that the case of laying the despatch on the Table in the present instance had been perfectly unusual; but then the very day before which it had been so laid before the House, the noble Lord moved for a copy of Lord Cathcart's despatch, and the Government did not wish to give it to him without producing the answer at the same time. CORN IMPORTATION BILL. House in Committee. The DUKE of RICHMOND rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move the addition of a clause to this Bill. Their Lordships were well aware of the respectability of the great body of the tenant-farmers of this country, and therefore he was satisfied that they would not be surprised at his rising to endeavour, to the utmost of his power, to prevent that body of men from being consigned to entire ruin. Their Lordships well knew that the tenant-farmers of the country felt most strongly that the measures now about, he feared, to pass that House, would very much diminish the price of their produce, and therefore they were naturally anxious that they should be enabled to get rid of those engagements which they had entered into solely upon the faith of Acts of Parliament, and the numerous pledges which were from time to time so solemnly given, that protection was to continue to be the policy of the Government. Without any fault of their own the case had been altered. He said, without any fault of their own for he must remind the House that in 1841 the tenant-farmers of the which they had been elected in which |