intended to go to sea; we will send them into the Downs." He (Sir C. Napier) asked, could they not send six vessels into the Downs with the same facility? Now, suppose those block ships were in the Downs and a westerly wind set in, and the enemy instead of going to the Downs proceeded to Plymouth, those block ships might be able to sail not more than five or six miles an hour, while the enemy's vessels could sail ten or twelve miles in the same time; and what then, he (Sir Charles Napier) asked, would become of their block ships? Now, with respect to their steam boats, he complained of the mode in which they were built. He went on board of one the other day in Woolwich, and she was exactly in the same position as the first steam boats they had built, and the engines and other parts were exposed to shot. He, therefore, conceived that they should change the present system. It was perfectly easy to do so, and he was sure that they would find that it would do a great deal of good. He had been allowed to build a steam man-of-war, and he had arranged that it should carry provisions for two hundred men; but when he went to look at the establishment of the Sidon, a paper from the Admiralty was shown to him, and that paper stated that she was to carry provisions for 240 men. But if they were to fit her out with a view to carry the order of the Admiralty into execution, she would, like other steam boats, be too deep in the water to be useful. He would suggest that the present Board of Admiralty should form some sort of Commission, to investigate and report what was the proper system of building steam boats, and thus save the country from the enormous losses to which it was subject during every year for the last twenty years. The Secretary of the Admiralty had said that steam boats were in their infancy. Yes, they were so in the navy; but it was not so in the merchant service. They were in their infancy for the last twenty years in the navy, and how long would it be before they came to maturity? If they went to Scotland, Liverpool, and Ireland, they would find steam boats belonging to the merchant service that could stand every weather. SIR GEORGE COCKBURN felt, after the statement which had been made by the gallant Officer on his left (Sir C. Napier), that it was quite right he should say a word on the subject. In the first place, it was said that after they (the late Board of Admiralty) came into office, they agreed in thinking that ships of war should go to sea fully manned; but at the same time, with respect to the ships that were kept in the Channel, he explained at the timetwo or three years ago-he felt that they could exercise those ships without being fully manned. They were enabled, with the sum they got from Parliament, to send more vessels where they were wantedfor instance, to Brazil and China-than if they had those vessels of the line fully manned at home. As to sending a double number of marines on board, it was exceedingly useful if they were looking out for the chance of a war, for a portion of them were lately enlisted, who were fit to act as soldiers, but it was necessary to have some experience at sea. He was old enough to remember the last war, when they were obliged to put soldiers on board, and they were all dead as it were from sea sickness. In the event of a war they had now a vote for 40,000 men; but if they had the vessels fully manned, they should have 43,000 or 44,000 men. They should, he repeated, send the marines to sea, to get sea legs, and give practice to the officers and men. As to the next charge, with respect to the cutting down of the block ships, the House would remember that it was not a proposal of the Admiralty at all. There was an order from the Government to appoint a Commission to visit all their ports, and see what was necessary to be done for their protection, in consequence of the French having got a steam navy. That Commission went round to the different ports, and the recommendation of that Commission was adopted by the Government, requiring that a certain number of line of battle ships, and of frigates, should be prepared to aid the batteries in the different positions in which they might be attacked; and it was thought wise that a screw propeller should be put to each of them to enable them to shift their position from side to side, where the attack of the enemy made it necessary. One of those vessels was to be completed with the screw, and the order was that others were not to be completed until that one was tried. His hon. and gallant Friend had stated that they had not a steamer that was a perfect man of war. They had often heard that statement before, and it was contradicted over again. He might mention an officer well known to the country, Sir Edmond Lyons, now Minister in Greece, and in his opinion the Terrible and Devastation were most efficient vessels. The Gomer (French | the policy of the Government with regard vessel) was not to be compared to the De- to the employment of admirals. It was, vastation; and it was quite right in his he thought, strange that the superintend(Sir G. Cockburn's) opinion, as they had ent of Woolwich Dockyard, whose services ships of the size in France, that in England were considered so important and pressing they should have some ships of the same that he was not permitted to sleep out of description, and therefore it was that those the dockyard without the express orders of ships were built. the Admiralty, should be taken from his post and placed in command of the experimental squadron; and it was equally strange that the Mediterranean station should be de CAPTAIN BERKELEY said, it had been his pride during his professional career, to endeavour to the utmost of his power to make the ship effective to which he be-prived of its only admiral, who was sent to longed; and it was now his pride to assist command that squadron, which he had not in making the British navy as effective as yet been able to find. Many of the old offipossible. He was sure they had the finest cers felt aggrieved that they should have fleet in the world, both ships that sailed and been passed over, and that their represensteamed; but he confessed there might be tations should not have been attended to. some difficulty to man those ships, and He would like to hear whether the Board particularly in cases of emergency. He of Admiralty approved of their conduct in was desirous that attention should be paid this respect. He would likewise wish to to the manning of the navy; and he hoped know whether they intended to continue the gallant Commodore would never have the same system pursued heretofore with to say that he forgot one word in office, regard to the conveyance of specie that he had said out of it. He thought namely, of giving the commander a dithere had been too much amateur ship-rect interest in the amount placed under building, and he wished that a minute, left his charge, by paying him a certain porby Lord Minto on his retirement from tion of it. He next came to the matter office, had been strictly followed. That of which he had given notice. He alnoble Lord, foreseeing, it would appear, what was about to take place, cautioned his successors, and through them the public, not to go too fast to endeavour to vie with others who were building bad steamers, when the small class of steamers were much better and more efficient for every purpose than all the large ones they could put together. luded to the case of a certain portion of the paymasters and pursers of the navy. The case of these officers was one of very great injustice. When placed on half-pay they were in three classes, who were paid at 3s., 4s., and 5s. a day respectively. It was found very unjust to old officers that they should not rise to more than 5s. a day, and the pursers accordingly agreed among themselves to forego some of their sea emoluments in order that their old officers on half-pay should have an increase of pay. The Report of the Commission of Inquiry instituted on the matter recommended an addition of ls. a day to the pay of the first class of these officers; and the amount sacrificed by the pursers to ensure this object from their sea emoluments was 9,6001. a year. In addition to this, 23 CAPTAIN PECHELL was always anxious for the prosperity of the British navy, and could safely say that he never made an observation tending to lower it in comparison with other navies. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Admiralty had gone through the items in a very clear manner, but he had not told them how he intended to apply them. He would wish for information on various matters connected with this subject. He would wish,per cent was taken off other emoluments, for instance, to hear how far the scheme, in connexion with the French Government, for the suppression of the Slave Trade, entered into by Her Majesty's late Government, had been successful, comparing the operations of the French cruisers with those of this country. There were, he believed, no treaties between France and the Brazils or Spain, that would warrant the French cruisers in attacking any vessel under the flags of those nations. He would also like to hear what was to be making a further sum of nearly 9,0001. a year. A total sum of 18,600l. thus came into the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but instead of these arrangements having been carried out by the Admiralty, they reduced the first class from 200 to 100. The consequence was, that a balance of 4,3841. was retained by the Government every year out of the amount so subscribed, and that 2,7371. a year was taken out of the pockets of 100 officers who ought to be in receipt of additional pay to that amount. He would ask any member of the Admiralty, and more particularly of the late Board, whether they could deny any one of the statements contained in the memorial of this class of officers? Some of the officers who had been so removed were from thirty to forty years' standing, and among others he might mention that the paymaster of the Victory, an officer of between thirty and forty years' standing, was still only in the third class. He would also wish to draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Admiralty, to another class of officers, namely, the masters. A master in the navy was in fact a master over nobody. Whenever there was any danger he was always at hand, but when promotion was in question he was never heard of; when there was any responsibility or blame to be attributed, the master had his share as well as the captain; but when honour was to be conferred, nobody thought of sending for the master. ADMIRAL DUNDAS said, when the Board of Admiralty had employment for admirals, the old officers would not be forgotten. As to the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman respecting the conveyance of specie, he believed a great part of the emolument went to the support of Greenwich Hospital. There could be no doubt but that the pursers were a most deserving class of officers, and he was sure the hon. and gallant Admiral opposite was prepared to explain the treatment of which the hon. and gallant Gentleman complained. SIR GEORGE COCKBURN said, the arrangements made with the pursers in 1841 was at their own application. The Commission which had been appointed on the subject went into the entire case of these officers, and recommended the additional retiring pay of 1s. a day; but that was no part of the original bargain entered into when their pay had been increased. CAPTAIN HARRIS had heard with much pleasure the statement of the hon. Gentle man the Secretary of the Navy, and cordially approved of the useful reforms the hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce. But he must call the attention of the Lords of the Admiralty to the mania which prevailed of putting very few and ponderous guns into our ships. Such a system would entail the same disastrous results as the opposite extreme of employing guns of too light a calibre. Our three classes of frigates threw one-sixth less weight of broadside than French and American ships of the same tonnage. The Vernon, larger than any of the French 60-gun frigates, carried two guns less on her main deck. The Pique, 100 tons more than the United States, threw 420 lb. less weight of shot. The old frigates of 1,000 tons, with a converted armament, would be overmatched in close action by the American corvettes of 800 tons. The ponderous swivel guns on the upper deck were only useful where steam power enabled a ship to choose her own range. Their crews were wholly exposed to the fire of musketry in close action from the want of bulwarks, and for the same cause they could not be fought in a sea way. At that late hour of the night he would not go into further details, but he trusted that this vicious system would not be persisted in. MR. G. H. HENEAGE wished to call the attention of the Committee to the large expenditure in forming a steam navy. They had hitherto no experience of the use of such enormous war steamers; those hitherto usefully employed in China and elsewhere were comparatively of a small class. A number of these large steamers had been sent to sea with the experimental squadron, and on a gale coming on they were not to be seen at the end of twenty-four hours, although the rest of the squadron kept together. Several other Votes agreed to. House resumed. Resolution to be re ported. House adjourned at a quarter-past One. INDEX. INDEX то HANSARD'S PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES, VOLUME LXXXVII. BEING THE FIFTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1846. EXPLANATION OF THE ABBREVIATIONS. - 1R. 2R. 3R. First, Second, or Third Reading-Amend., Amendment.-Res., Resolution.-Com. --- ADDERLEY, Mr. C. B., Staffordshire, N. Administration of Justice Bill, c. 1R. 595; 2R.* 1127 Adverse Claims (Ireland) Bill, c. 1R.* 1229; 2R.* 1302; Rep.* 1404. ADVOCATE, The LORD (Right Hon. D. Death by Accident Compensation, Com. 1370 AGLIONBY, Mr. H., Cockermouth ALLIX, Mr. J. P., Cambridgeshire c. Papers moved for (Mr. P. Miles), 481; Com. ANSON, Hon. Colonel G., Staffordshire, S. ARMSTRONG, Sir A., King's Co. Administration of Justice in the City of ASHBURTON, Lord London, 7. Petition (Lord Brougham), 1401 Corn Importation, Com. 336, 445; add. cl. 682; ATTORNEY GENERAL, The (Sir F. Thesi- BENTINCK, Lord W. G. F. C., King's ger), Abingdon Parliamentary Electors and Freemen, 2R. BANGOR, Bishop of Lynn St. Asaph and Bangor and Manchester Dioceses, BERKELEY, Hon. C. F., 2R. 1281 Bangor and St. Asaph and Manchester Dioseses Bill, 1. 1R.* 1033, 1060; 2R. 1269, [Contents 38, BANKES, Mr. G., Dorsetshire Poor Removal, Instruction to Committee, 42, Protection of Life (Ireland), 2R. 992 Taylor, Sir C., Charges against, 125 Bankruptcy and Insolvency Bill, * Cheltenham Wellington, Duke of, Statue to the, Address BODKIN, Mr. W. H., Rochester c. Com. 1136; 1R.* 1160; 2R.* 1302; Rep.* BORTHWICK, Mr. P., Evesham Education of the People, 1254 Poor Removal, Instruction to Committee, 95; Protection of Life (Ireland), 1024 Supply-Education (Ireland), 1259;-School |