In that line, I would like to direct to counsel to the committee, if I might, a question as to when the materials which we have already voted will be made available will in effect be public and available? Is that information yet apparent?

Mr. DOAR. Well, some of the materials are in page proof, the remaining materials are being assembled to go into page proof. We hope that it will all be published within the next 2 weeks.

Mr. OWENS. What about the transcripts?

Mr. DOAR. They are in page proof.

Mr. OWENS. There is no publication date at this point?

Mr. DOAR. That is up to the chairman and the ranking minority member. They should take 1 day or 2 after the page proofs are back to run final.

Mr. OWENS. Does the Chair have any more precise information on that at this point?

Mr. BROOKS. Question, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will state that the Chair has not yet had an opportunity to review all of the material and the material, when it is presented, will then be looked at and in accordance with the resolution adopted, screen that material and then, after the ranking member has also done the same, release it for publication.

Mr. HOGAN. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. OWENS. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the most important thing in terms of bringing the public into these proceedings is that the public have the opportunity of witnessing the debate in articles of impeachment which are scheduled tentatively to begin 2 weeks from today. There is pending before the House Rules Committee a resolution introduced 6 months ago which would change the House rule to permit these hearings to be televised. As I know members are aware, under the present rules, these meetings, these debates may not be open to the broadcast media, though they may be open, as is this meeting today, to representatives of the broadcast media and to print journalists. They are not available to electronic broadcasting. I submit that it is exceedingly important that at that point, where we are debating and I will yield in just 1 minute-that at that point, when we are debating all the evidence that has been elicited in these hearings and that is before the committee and at such times as the transcripts have then been made available and the rules of confidentiality then have expired-at that point, it would be exceedingly important that the public have the opportunity of witnessing these debates and these votes on the articles of-on any possible articles of impeachment. I vield my time.

The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired.

Mr. BROOKS. Question, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from California.

Mr. MCCLORY. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Maryland was seeking recognition.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hogan.

Mr. HOGAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to express my great admiration for the Chair and the majority members, in spite of how busy we have been with all the burden of work we have, that

they have had time to begin reading the House rules and have now discovered rule 11 and those who had argued so eloquently for open sessions and the public's right to know have now discovered rule 11 and changed their views.

Mr. McCLORY. Will the gentleman from Maryland yield to me? Mr. HOGAN. I yield to the gentleman from Illinois.

Mr. McCLORY. I thank the gentleman.

I just want to say that when we adopted the rules of this committee, I offered to an amendment that the hearings, the entire hearings of this committee, would be open for television. The television industry installed the facilities for televising these hearings. Now we are coming to the very final stages of the hearings and the television media have been denied completely the opportunity to take one picture of one hearing one session, one hearing, of one witness, of one bit of presentation, notwithstanding the fact that this assurance was provided.

It seems to me that there is a suspicion that 90 percent or more of the entire presentation that was made is already of material in the public. domain; yet the public was denied the opportunity to see and hear and know about that. It seems to me that we have just performed a great disservice to our American people in closing these doors tight to the public.

Mr. HOGAN. I yield to the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Sandman.

Mr. SANDMAN. It seems to me one of the things about this whole ridiculous argument today, the whole thing behind this argument today, one would gather, would be that we have to keep this thing confidential, that the rules of confidentiality still pertain to this. They pertained to 2 weeks of time. That is all they pertained to. What you have voted to already release is 10 times as damaging as what these witnesses can give in the next 7 days. Now, why don't we accept that fact?

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from California. All those in favor of the motion, please say aye.

[Chorus of "ayes."]

The Chairman. All those opposed?

[Chorus of "noes."]

Mr. FROEHLICH. Roll call, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. A call of the roll is demanded. The roll will be called. All those in favor of the motion, please vote aye; those opposed no. The clerk will call the roll.

The CLERK. Mr. Donohue.

Mr. DONOHUE. Ave.

The CLERK. Mr. Brooks.

Mr. BROOKS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Kastenmeier.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Edwards.

Mr. EDWARDS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Hungate.
Mr. HUNGATE. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Conyers.

Mr. CONYERS. Ave.

The CLERK. Mr. Eilberg.
Mr. EILBERG. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Waldie.

Mr. WALDIE. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Flowers.

The CHAIRMAN. Aye, by proxy. The CLERK. Mr. Mann.

Mr. MANN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Sarbanes.

Mr. SARBANES. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Seiberling.
Mr. SEIBERLING. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Danielson.

Mr. DANIELSON. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Drinan.

Mr. DRINAN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Rangel.

Mr. RANGEL. Aye.

The CLERK. Ms. Jordan.

Ms. JORDAN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Thornton.

Mr. THORNTON. Aye.

The CLERK. Ms. Holtzman.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Owens.

Mr. OWENS. Ave.

The CLERK. Mr. Mezvinsky.

Mr. MEZVINSKY. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Hutchinson.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Pass.

The CLERK. Mr. McClory.

Mr. McCLORY. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Smith.

Mr. SMITH. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Sandman.

Mr. SANDMAN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Railsback.

Mr. RAILSBACK. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. WIGGINS. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Dennis.

Mr. DENNIS. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Fish.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. No, by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Mayne.

Mr. MAYNE. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Hogan.

Mr. HOGAN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Butler.

Mr. BUTLER. NO.

The CLERK. Mr. Cohen.

Mr. COHEN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Lott.
Mr. LOTT. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Froehlich.
Mr. FROEHLICH. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Moorhead.

Mr. MOORHEAD. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Maraziti.

Mr. MARAZITI. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Latta.

Mr. LATTA. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Rodino.

The CHAIRMAN. Aye.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Mr. Clerk, I vote aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Hutchinson votes aye.

The CHAIRMAN. The clerk will report the roll.

The CLERK. Twenty-three members have voted aye; 15 members have voted no.

The CHAIRMAN. The motion is agreed to.

Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions that ought to be brought to the attention of the committee before we begin the taking of testimony on tomorrow.

It is first my understanding, Mr. Chairman, that the committee would have available to it today a written statement with respect to the scope of the examination. Do you have any information to give to the committee in that regard?

The CHAIRMAN. I believe that we have some written scope of the examination on the part of the counsel for the President, who requested this, and I think that that was the request, I think that that is in accordance with the rules.

Mr. WIGGINS. My question, Mr. Chairman, is are we the members going to have the benefit of that statement concerning the scope of the examination? That is consistent, of course, Mr. Chairman, with the resolution passed last week by the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair does not have it at this time, but the Chair will state that the chairman and the ranking minority member have not yet-we were awaiting counsel's interviews with the various witnesses before we would provide the members with the statement. Mr. WIGGINS. May I suggest that prior to taking of the testimony tomorrow, in accordance with the resolution adopted last week, that written statement will be made available?

The CHAIRMAN. That will be provided.

Mr. MCCLORY. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire, as a result of the action on the floor today, in which rule 11 remains intact, what is the policy, what is the procedure of the committee going to be with regard to the interrogation of witnesses? That is, I would like to know the scope and extent of counsel's role and, of course, the members. I understand the members will each have 5 minutes for the purpose of interrogating each of the witnesses. But how do you plan to do this?

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will advise the gentleman from Illinois tomorrow morning before we proceed.

Mr. McCLORY. You mean we cannot have any advance notice so that

we can

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair. will comply with the rules of the House. We will allow each member who wants to interview to interview for the 5 minutes that he is allowed under the rules of the House.

Mr. MCCLORY. Will counsel interrogate the witnesses first?

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has not yet made that determination. The Chair will consult with the ranking

Mr. RAILSBACK. Would you yield?

Mr. McCLORY. I wonder if you could indicate to the members, Mr. Chairman, the order in which the witnesses will be called? I understand Mr. Butterfield is to be called first?

The CHAIRMAN. That is correct.

Mr. McCLORY. What is the continuation of the order, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. We have no further order actually set out.

Mr. McCLORY. I yield to the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Rails

back.

Mr. RAILSBACK. I yield to the gentleman from California.

Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, I have the time. I am satisfied with the chairman's answer to my first question. There are three.

The second question deals with the matter of theories of the case. I understand that the staff is to make available today, if my memory serves me, the theory on which the possible impeachment might proceed. Can I have a report with respect to whether that is available?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I will inquire of counsel whether or not it is. Mr. DOAR. We are working on that, Mr. Chairman. The problem this weekend has been that Mr. Jenner and I have been engaged in interviewing the witnesses that the committee wished us to interview prior to making the recommendations to the Chair and the ranking minority member with respect to calling witnesses. We should have that tomorrow at the latest.

Mr. WIGGINS. I will look forward to it tomorrow.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to advise the member who inquired as to the order in which the questioning will take place that in accordance with the rules, the Chair has no other alternative but to state that committee counsel shall commence the questioning of each witness and may also be permitted by the chairman to question the witness at any point during the appearance of the witness.

Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, if I could conclude just briefly, will an objection lie to any question asked? If the answer to that question is yes, who may make such an objection, and who will rule on it, and is any ruling made by the Chair, I would presume, subject to review by the Committee of the Whole?

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will refer the gentleman to the rules of procedure C-2, objections relating to the examination of witnesses or the admissibility of testimony in evidence may be raised only by the witness or his counsel, a member of the committee, any counsel, President's counsel, and shall be ruled upon by the chairman or presiding member. Such ruling shall be final.