also as a separate document just as we have or would if we offered some additional things from the staff. We have an affidavit of Mr. Kehrli to offer. That would go in pursuant to the usual rules of publication. Mr. DENNIS. Mr. Chairman, if I may say that if the suggestion of counsel is adopted, that that excerpt from the March 22 tape be included in the record at this time as evidentiary material, I would be far more inclined to defer the matter presented by the amendment to a later date than otherwise I would be. The CHAIRMAN. Well, I might say to the gentleman that despite the fact that I think Mr. St. Clair even in presenting this other additional matter transgressed the rules once again, because-well now, just a minute. We have established rules. And the rules of the committee provide that should President's counsel wish the committee to receive additional evidence, other evidence, he shall be invited to submit written requests and precise summaries of what he would propose to show, and then the committee would make a recommendation. I know the Chair very liberally tried to understand that Mr. St. Clair was going to submit this, and has made no objection to the fact that Mr. St. Clair has not followed the rules, but I would urge that it is not and doesn't comport with our rules and with the natural flow of information, the evidentiary material, and therefore, I would hope that the gentleman would, in keeping with what Mr. Doar has stated, and knowing that we have printed everything, and I for one don't intend to withhold anything from the public, and I hope that none of us would, that this be made, will be made a part of the evidentiary record. But, under the reservations I am sure that all of us are going to be aware of the fact that we have to accept that with complete reservations. Mr. DENNIS. Well, Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Indiana is still not clear whether if he withdraws his amendment the exhibit of the March 22 conversation will or will not be published under this motion, as unamended, and I would like to have a clear answer to that question. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is part of the evidentiary material. The CHAIRMAN. Will be published. Mr. DENNIS. In that case I withdraw my amendment. The CHAIRMAN. Despite the fact that it was outside of the rules. Mr. SARBANES. I move the previous question. The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the motion. All those in favor please say aye. [Chorus of "ayes."] The CHAIRMAN. All those opposed? [Chorus of "noes."] Mr. CHAIRMAN. The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to. Mr. WIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, not controversial I trust, I asked. Mr. Chairman, that the staff provide a small item of evidentiary material which has not heretofore been included in our materials; namely, the statements of the President which were introduced in the Judge Gesell trial of Mr. Ehrlichman with respect to his participation, if any, in the Fielding break-in. And incidentally, we have a pending request with respect to Hunt grand jury testimony, and the staff was going to attempt to negotiate with the Special Prosecutor to get Hunt's grand jury testimony on or about March 28, 1973, and I reassert that. I hope that you will continue in that respect. Mr. DOAR. All right. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doar, how soon will it be before the committee is going to be able to-I know this is another task that the staff is going to be imposed upon to do within a short period of time, but I really do believe that that material that was referred to this morning as a set of the Ehrlichman notes, I would hope that we are able to provide for the set of notes or a comparison, the actual set of notes for examination by the members of the committee. Mr. DOAR. There are two sets ready for examination now, and the analysis is being worked on now, so that there will be someway that the committee can look at it and get a sense of it as quickly as possible. We will probably make another eight or nine sets of it so that full sets will be available for any committee members if the committee members wish to see them over at our offices or we can get it over, we can have it brought over to a particular office. The CHAIRMAN. And for whatever it is worth, I would urge the members of the committee to please examine these. Ms. HOLTZMAN. Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Ms. Holtzman. Ms. HOLTZMAN. Along those lines, I wonder, Mr. Doar, for our understanding of what was not produced to this committee, if you could prepare the materials, prepare the materials you received from the Special Prosecutor and bracket those portions which were omitted in the President's submission to us. I think that would make it very easy. Mr. DOAR. That is what we are doing. Ms. HOLTZMAN. Thank you. Mr. DOAR. There are 185 pages. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fish. Mr. FISH. Mr. Chairman, at the outset today, you told us about housekeeping matters, and then a discussion of the procedures to be followed next week, and I was wondering if you could tell me then, I understand we have the theories of the case, and what is the agenda for the committee this afternoon and Friday and Saturday of this week? The CHAIRMAN. The committee will hold closed briefing sessions tomorrow and Friday, tomorrow and Saturday, and we will meet at 10 o'clock in the morning. Mr. WIGGINS. Are the theories available now, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. The theories, or the articles, proposed articles, I understand are still in the process of being readied. I can tell you that I have examined some. They aren't really in order to be presented to the committee until tomorrow morning, but I am sure you will have a sufficient time on Friday and Saturday to examine them. Mr. FISH. Mr. Chairman, to continue that, does the chairman contemplate then debate by the full committee starting on Monday? The CHAIRMAN. No. The Chair recognizes first of all that there have been these delays in the information that should be available to the committee. That has been delayed, and for that reason, and in order that the members of the committee have sufficient opportunity to examine and study the matters that come to their intention, I intend to schedule the commencement of actual debate on any resolution for Wednesday of the next week. Now, it is my intention, and I think that the members might just consider this, but it is my intention to propose that what we might do would be to take a period of no more than 30 hours, 30 hours, and 10 of those hours would be allotted for the purposes of general debate or general discussion. This means when you break it down to not more than 15 minutes, approximately 15 minutes or more minutes for each member on the question of general debate. For the consideration of any proposed articles, there would be another 20 hours, at which time we would then, however, have voted, and I think that this is all a total of 30 hours. And actually, if you consider we would have to spend at least, well, 6 hours a day, 7 hours a day which would mean at least 5 days. And I think Mr. FISH. Commencing when? The CHAIRMAN. We would probably go on through Wednesday. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and possibly Monday, at which time we would conclude. But, it would be my proposal, my plan, that we do all this within the period of 30 hours. Mr. FISH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. That would be in toto. Actually, so that the members may know, in total, the members would have had better than 50 minutes per member. Mr. DENNIS. Mr. Chairman, I don't think I quite understood one thing you said. You get to the 20 hours on proposed argument, and I understood you to say at which time we would have voted? The CHAIRMAN. Well, at the conclusion. Mr. DENNIS. At the conclusion of the debate on the articles, then, is when we will vote? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. DENNIS. OK. Mr. HOGAN. Votes on articles as they occur? The CHAIRMAN. Seriatum, right. Mr. DENNIS. And what is the nature of the briefing tomorrow and Saturday? The CHAIRMAN. Well, the briefing will be by counsel who will present the theories with the proposed articles and supported by whatever evidentiary material or data. Mr. DENNIS. It will be a basis for the articles, more or less? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. My understanding is as well that there has been requested of Mr. Garrison a presentation, and I would hope that while we are not aware of just what that might be, that that would be ready so that we would— Mr. DENNIS. That was the next thing I was going to ask the chairman, if Mr. Garrison would be permitted to present his also? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. RANGEL. Who's Mr. Garrison? Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Butler? Mr. BUTLER. With reference first to the information which counsel has promised us, and I recognize the pressure that you are under, but timewise I am most anxious to examine the theories as early as possible. Could you give us some possibility that we might have an opportunity to pick them up this afternoon? Mr. DOAR. No, they are just-it is just impossible. Mr. BUTLER. All right. Let the record show my disappointment. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have another question. Will the reporter, will this be transcribed? I am going to have to be absent for a portion of the briefing, but I would like to be kept abreast of it, and I would like to think that that will be transcribed. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, of course. Mr. BUTLER. And I wanted to be certain of that. The CHAIRMAN. Of course. Mr. BUTLER. All right, now. Finally, Mr. Chairman, with reference to the 10 hours of general debate, I assume we will adopt some kind of a rule which will spell this out? Will that require at that time a waiver of the 5-minute rule with reference to amendments? The CHAIRMAN. Well, the 5-minute rule only applies to the question of hearings with witnesses. Mr. BUTLER. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. And the Chair has, in an effort to try to be reasonable with time, and liberal with time, and at the same time understanding the magnitude of this problem, has thought of 15 minutes at least in general discussion and all told, it figured out at about 50 minutes per member, if each member were to use the 50 minutes. Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman, I hate to trespass so long, but one more question with reference to the 10 hours of general debate. Does it contemplate that we will be on the floor before the general debate with some kind of a motion? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. There will be before each committee member a resolution with whatever articles are proposed. Mr. BUTLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HOGAN. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman? Mr. HOGAN. So that we might plan, the chairman indicated that tomorrow we would begin at 10 o'clock. Could he tell us, will we begin on Saturday at 10 o'clock as well, and the estimation termination time on Saturday. The CHAIRMAN. Well, we would hope to, we would hope to get through within a reasonable hour. But, if the members want to go on Mr. HOGAN. The gentleman from Maryland has a speech that evening. I am wondering if I should cancel it or whather I should assume that I would be able to make it? The CHAIRMAN. I would hope that it is going to be in the interest of members to be able to utilize this informal briefing session in preparation and readiness for whatever debate we contemplate the following week. Mr. HOGAN. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. But, is it anticipated that it will continue on into Saturday evening? The CHAIRMAN. Well, no, I really don't believe so. Mr. DENNIS. Mr. Chairman ? Mr. FLOWERS. Mr. Chairman, I have two points and I don't want to belabor either one of them. But, I personally would be concerned with establishing in advance a 20-hour moratorium on debate on the articles of impeachment. I don't see how we can do that, inasmuch as the explaining of any potential articles is perhaps the most important part of our entire work here. And I think we have to contemplate many, many amendments to any proposal. And to say in advance that we are going to be hamstrung to 20 hours when we may not take that, but no one can say, I just don't see how we can do it. And my second point is that I would strongly urge that we consider adopting a procedure, in effect, like we work in the House; that is, in the committee of the whole, where you amend the bill and then you delay the vote on that bill until you go back into the House, because if we begin debate on the first proposed article of impeachment and we vote on it up or down at the end of that, then if something else-the sense of drama that is now enjoyed by this committee will be lost before we get through with the 30 hours. The CHAIRMAN. Well, the Chair is trying, is trying to suggest that as a matter of reasonableness and procedure that 20 hours seems to me to contemplate at least 4 days and that I think that if the committee seeks to extend it, the committee can by majority vote do so. But, I think that setting some time at least within a reasonable limit is entirely I think reasonable and responsible. I would hope that we follow such a proposal. Mr. DENNIS. Mr. Chairman ? Mr. FLOWERS. What about the second point? What is the process by which you would call for votes on the various proposed articles of impeachment? The CHAIRMAN. Well, it would be, it would have to be ad seriatum, one following the other, and the question of debate will be just debate in the first 10 hours, so there won't be any vote at that time. But, following that, and the question of amending, and taking each, whatever articles may be proposed in sequence, and then voting accordingly. Mr. FLOWERS. Well, that's when we will lose our audience right there. Mr. DENNIS. Talking about the audience, Mr. Chairman-Mr. Chairman? I don't want to belabor this, I just want to be sure I have the schedule straight. Now, tomorrow and the next day, briefs, right? The CHAIRMAN. Right. Mr. DENNIS. Monday and Tuesday are days off? The CHAIRMAN. Well, it may be necessary to schedule a meeting on Monday. Mr. DENNIS. OK, but debate starts Wednesday? The CHAIRMAN. That is correct. Mr. DENNIS. Then you intend to run debate approximately until when? The CHAIRMAN. Through Saturday, if not through Monday. |