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Mr. RAILSBACK. I wonder if we wouldn't be better-I don't object to doing what you are suggesting, but I wonder whether we wouldn't be better off to have the weekend to go through it carefully ourselves. In other words, instead of coming back tomorrow, I think I would like a couple of days to study the stuff.
Mr. SARBANES. I think we have got to come back and-
I think we need the time to come back and start this sort of exchange. I think that overnight-I mean this is not more material than one can work through overnight and be prepared to respond to. I don't think we ought to sit here until 8 or 9 o'clock tonight going through a process; I agree with that. But I do think we ought to have a chance to hear a kind of touching of what is here and what the high points are and then take it away and read it and think about it, and then come back and start this process of probing and exchanging and questioning
In the end, we are all going to have to, you know, be able to respond to the points that are made.
Mr. RAILSBACK. If you will yield, I just really believe at this pointwe are going to start debate pretty quick. It just seems to me that we would be well advised-we have worked hard, now. We have been working hard. We have had briefings. It seems to me we would be well advised to really familiarize ourselves with this material which they say is everything they are going to present anyway. I just think if it takes-what is the matter with a couple of days instead of trying to force everything?
Mr. SEIBERLING. Will the gentleman yield to me, Mr. Sarbanes ?
Mr. SEIBERLING. All of us experienced in law school, I assume, have had the experience that we got a lot more out of a lecture if we read the cases first. I just think that I am getting absolutely nothing out of Mr. Davis' rapid flashing of facts in front of my eyes-absolutely nothing. My mind, and maybe other people don't have this problem, but my mind can't take them in and relate them that fast. It is like having a bunch of pictures flash faster than I can take them in.
I think if we can read this stuff and then listen to his outline of the facts, we would get far, far more out of the presentation. That is all I am saying. I agree with the gentleman from Illinois. Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Butler.
Mr. BUTLER. I would just like to associate myself with the remarks and the line of reasoning that it is more important to read this before we come here and discuss it. I was searching through my notes on last evening and I find many references and many inquiries of Mr. Doar as to when we were going to get the information we have today. I have pleaded with him to get it to us on time.
I am not particularly critical, but on July 9, I noticed a narticular reference in which he promised it to us within the week. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time and I have continuously protested that my mind is even slower than Mr. Seiberling's. I have got to have this, I have got to go through it before I can think. And this whole process bothers me from the point of view that I may be rushed into a decision-as I have on many subpenas. Unfortunately, I think it was just sloppy. Luckily, it came out all right; I think it was the right decision.
But this is the big question, now. I would like, Mr. Chairman, for an opportunity to consider this thing maturely and carefully over the weekend, so that if there are things that really trouble me, I can come back and ask counsel about them. So I would like to associate myself with the people who think that maybe the more appropriate time would be to come back on Monday.
Mr. HUNGATE. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. HUNGATE. I am in general sympathy with the views. I have maturely and carefully cancelled four appointments and rearranged with a U.S. Senator to be here tomorrow. I will be greatly chagrined, after having relied on the schedule and the fact that we are needing to use our time, if now I can go back and announce to everybody that I have lost my mind and I didn't need to do that.
I think there needs to be some stability in the scheduling. I would hope we might work out some middle ground whereby we either leave early this afternoon and study this in preparation for tomorrow, or perhaps meet all afternoon. But as has been indicated by counsel for all parties, there are politics involved in this and the lives of all of us, and it is rather a matter of chagrin when you tell people one thing and it doesn't come out that way.
Ms. HOLTZMAN. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Mann. Mr. Chairman, I join with Mr. Hungate in stating that I was utterly delighted when I found we were going to meet tomorrow because I have been agonizing over what Mr. Butler has said, that we are going to be rushed into a decision without the opportunity for proper reflection and discussion.
Now, Mr. Railsback has just finished saying that we are confronted with debate. We are confronted with debate before the television camera that is going to be nonproductive as far as our reaching a decision is concerned. Now, for that reason, time is so precious to us or we need to reconsider the deadlines that are confronting us in order to have the discussion, the exchange of ideas, the devil's advocacy, the probing that we need.
Now, let's not kid ourselves. There are some people here who still need some input. Now, I can agree that this process perhaps can be shortened and that we can in a couple of hours, or an hour, after lunch take the dose and take it home with us. But as I saw in the last few days, our being confronted with a Monday or a Tuesday television debate, which I say again-who are we going to be persuading in that debate? If there are any facts to be decided, any personal decisions to be made, they are going to be made as a result of private reflection on the exchange of ideas with my colleagues on this committee. And I would like to have that opportunity. Therefore, I cherished the possi. bility that we were going to meet tomorrow and I had hoped that we were going to meet Monday, though it hadn't been announced, and
Tuesday, and I was going to use every device to see that that came about.
Mr. DENNIS. Will the gentleman yield? Mr. Mann. I will yield. Mr. DENNIS. Would it not be better studying this and then doing what you suggest on Monday and Tuesday?
The CHAIRMAN. Why can't I offer a suggestion as a compromise ? Why can't we, in the light of the fact that some members feel that we should have this time for discussion and some presentation, why don't we adjourn this afternoon and meet tomorrow morning and have an opportunity to go over these matters that have been presented to us, and there may be other matters, as well, tomorow that I think are important insofar as procedures go that I think we can also discuss.
I think that-frankly, let me say this, that, you know, the staff would welcome this opportunity to have some time to be able to put together some of the things that are being asked for, I must say to Mr. Butler and I must say to all of those who, while they say that they are not being overly critical of the staff, I have got to state that as one who has followed this staff-and this is no defense or apology but a statement of fact—as one who has followed this staff, that there has been preoccupation every moment until 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning with the presentation and a compilation of materials that would be helpful. So I would hope that members would refrain, even as kindiy as they try to be, from trying to impress upon the staff that they have been somehow delinquent. It has just been physically impossible.
Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. I am offering that as a compromise, that we do adjourn and meet tomorrow morning.
Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. BROOKS. I would say I think that is an excellent compromise. It probably will meet the needs of the members best. I would like to spend this afternoon working. I have refrained from getting into that. I think that tomorrow morning, it would be helpful if we could think of a schedule, in accordance with your suggestion, that we come in at 9 o'clock, maybe hear whatever Mr. Doar's staff might want to present, and then ask questions; if we have any procedural matters to discuss informally, we could discuss them and anticipate concluding, say, at 1 o'clock without a break. If we will work from 9 to 1 o'clock, we can get a lot done, and those members that want to work on this over the weekend can proceed toward that effort starting at 1 o'clock, without just sitting here and acting like we are working when some members will have to be gone. Why put them to the embarrassment?
I am going to be here. I can work Sunday. Some of them are committed to go home Saturday night. So let's just face that. I think it is a fine suggestion.
Mr. MCCLORY. Mr. Chairman, I would want to indicate my concurrence in your suggestion, go over until tomorrow at whatever hour you set, 9 or 10 o'clock.
I would suggest to the members on my side, those that are available meet in my office at 2 o'clock in order that we might have a discussion of the procedures for next week. I think that is extremely important.
Mr. Doar. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doar. I want to be sure that all the members understand this. That is that in our presentation, we have not yet touched on the theories of abuse of power, the matter with respect to noncompliance with the committee's subpenas, matters with respect to the personal finances of the President. The matter with respect to personal finances of the President and noncompliance with the subpenas is in the book, but the abuse of power section we will deliver to each of your offices to insert in the book if we don't come back after lunch, almost immediately. We will take personal responsibility to see that each of you get it, individually. But I wouldn't want any member to go off and think that because we only spoke about Watergate here, we hadn't an overall summary on those other areas.
I hope that is clear to everyone.
The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would like to state that when we do break from here, since this is just an informal briefing and not a meeting, an official meeting, that the Chair is going to, on Monday, set a time, too, for consideration of the release of some of the materials that have not been considered as materials that were released for publication when we adopted the resolution for releasing and publication of materials. Those matters still have to come before us. The Chair intends to set a meeting for that time.
I would also like to state that outside, I have just been advised that there are a couple of thousand—I don't know—well, in the halls or someplace, there are those who are demonstrating on the question of impeachment, I guess the committee in fairness to the presidency. I would just like you to be aware of it.
Mr. DENNIS. Mr. Chairman, when are we meeting now! Mr. RANGEL, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Owens. Mr. Chairman, point of clarification. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Owens. Mr. OWENS. At what point will the committee meet to set down the procedures for the formal debate next week? Will that be
The CHAIRMAN. We are going to discuss those tomorrow again and then set the time on Monday-9:30 tomorrow morning.
Mr. RANGEL. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. RANGEL. Before we adjourn, not too long ago, this committee agreed to allow the senior members to have counsel attend certain parts of the presentation. Now that we are reaching this conclusion, I suppose some of the more junior members would like to have the assistance of one of their staff members to work with us. We are going to have to carry this on the floor. We won't have, you know, I was wondering at what point could we have one member of our staff come in?
The CHAIRMAN. I have already indicated that that is the case and all that there was in the various assignments, all that had to be done, that had to be cleared with Mr. Zeifman.
Mr. RANGEL. I mean for our briefings? I am talking about our briefing sessions.
The CHAIRMAN. I think if there is no objection, there ought to be permitted the opportunity for some member of the personal staff to come in. I don't see any reason why not.
Mr. RANGEL. Thank you.
My answer, then, is that we will receive this afternoon in our offices the portions not yet distributed. Is that correct?
Mr. Doar. That is correct.
Mr. DANIELSON. The other part is I know we have gone through a great deal of discussion. My understanding is that we will meet again tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock?
The CHAIRMAN. At 9:30, and let me state that in light of the fact that we don't need a quorum, the Chair is going to start at 9:30.
[Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Saturday, July 20, 1974.]