The CHAIRMAN. No; the Chair understands what the gentleman is inquiring about. And I believe that under the rules of the House, a motion to strike would be in order at any given time.

Mr. RAILSBACK. I see.

The CHAIRMAN. And therefore, I do not believe that under the rules of the House I could properly rule that the motion to strike, which is similar to any other amendment, would be out of order after the amendment, or after the article has been perfected.

Mr. RAILSBACK. Thank you.

Mr. EILBERG. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eilberg.

Mr. EILBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak in opposition to the amendment or the substitute offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin.

The gentleman from California earlier mentioned the majority was being unfair to the minority. Here is one member of the majority who, having listened to all of these weeks and months of evidence, is somewhat overwhelmed by the burden of evidence that was presented, and I must confess at this moment I don't know what articles I will be voting for. But, I am prepared to vote for articles of impeachment. Mr. McCLORY. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. EILBERG. Not at this time. Now, it seems to me that when the gentleman from California, Mr. Wiggins, says that we are being unfair; to the contrary, I think we are excessively fair. I suspect that there are members not only on our side, but on the Republican side who might vote for articles of impeachment.

But, if they are going to be presented with the torment of voting of an article of impeachment each day and over the weekend, and then subjected to the kinds of pressures that they might be subjected to, it seems to me that the humane or proper way of doing this is disposing of this matter all at one time. And certainly the substitute of the gentleman from Wisconsin does not move in that direction.

Certainly the gentleman's amendment does not move in the direction that the gentleman from Alabama's does, where he has talked to certain members on the majority side trying to find a way that there would be, that would be useful to move in a direction of representing a truly majority point of view.

Now, I don't, I don't know what the gentleman from Alabama is going to vote for. I haven't seen any articles of impeachment. I don't know whether he will vote for impeachment.

But, I say as firmly as I can that we are creating a more difficult situation if we are to accept the position stated by the gentleman from Wisconsin and I am opposed to his substitute.

Mr. MCCLORY. Will the gentleman now yield?

Mr. EILBERG. I will be glad to yield.

Mr. McCLORY. Thank you. I would just like to comment that the proposed resolution which was considered at our Republican caucus did contemplate that there would be proposed articles of impeachment before we began the general debate, and it seems to me that whether it is a question of unfairness or not, it seems to me that it is a question of orderly procedure, so that we will know when we begin

Mr. EILBERG. We are talking about two different things. I say to the gentleman from Illinois that he is talking of having articles of

41-018-75-pt. 3- 43

impeachment before him when we begin debate, and I am addressing myself specifically to the substitute offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin, which I think does not concentrate on the same thing as the gentleman's from Alabama.

Mr. RAILSBACK. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. McCLORY. You are talking about the time of voting. I don't think that's too important a subject, and I don't think that you are going to agonize over that.

Mr. EILBERG. I will be glad to yield to the gentleman, Mr. Railsback. Mr. RAILSBACK. I share your opinion, and I say that even though a motion to strike may be injected, the feature of a vote on each individual amendment or each article, I still think that even though we have that motion to strike, if there is one, we will be permitted to do as the gentleman's resolution seeks to do, have a final vote on each individual article as amended at the end, at one time.

Mr. EILBERG. I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. LATTA. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Latta.

Mr. LATTA. Sometime before we vote on this Kastenmeier substitute, I have a perfecting amendment to offer.

The CHAIRMAN. I will recognize the gentleman at the appropriate time for that purpose.

Mr. LATTA. Thank you.

Mr. FISH. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. May I state that first of all, replying to the gentleman from California, who uttered such complete surprise and talked about unfairness. I am sure that the gentleman, if you were to inquire, as I stated before, of members of the minority, and I am not going to disclose who had been talked with and who had been consulted, and who was part and parcel of the drafting of this resolution, that is something for those particular members to disclose if they want to. However, I shall not.

But, I must say that again this was like every other matter that has come before this committee, a matter that had been talked about for a period of time and the vehicle that is now before us was that vehicle that we felt would serve the kind of procedure that becomes necessary at this time. It is not unlike legislation that is before the House of Representatives every day, where matters are debated, where certain sections of bills are amended, and no particular vote is taken at that time.

As a matter of fact, at the conclusion of debate, any member may, upon request, ask for a vote on any particular amendment. And this is what is sought to be done here.

The surprise that there are no particular articles which might be before the member's desk at this time is no surprise at all. I think that members of the committee have all been furnished with various proposed articles which will be considered by the members at that time. and the motion of the gentleman from Alabama was appropriate in that it would have allowed that time following debate that a motion. would have been presented to the committee, with proposed articles. which would then have addressed themselves specifically for the purpose of being amended.

So, this comports with the rules of the House. It is not unusual procedure. It is the kind of procedure that would have been orderly, that would be orderly, and I, as a member of this committee, intend not to vote for the substitute, but to support the original resolution of the gentleman from Alabama.

Mr. BROOKS. Question.

Mr. FLOWERS. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Alabama.

Mr. FLOWERS. If I could say this, Mr. Chairman, I would not be adverse, I appreciate the chairman's statement, I would not be adverse to the provision about the articles being before us, I think that anybody, given the time that we now have, which is until tomorrow evening, that I was not aware of when we began this morning, that that would be possible for anybody who is contemplating offering such articles, they could be put on the table, so to speak, at that time, and they ought to be able to.

I would be amenable to such an amendment, if the substitute is defeated and my motion comes back before the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. The question is

Mr. LATTA. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. COHEN. Mr. Chairman, parliamentary inquiry.
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it.

Mr. COHEN. Would it be in order, Mr. Chairman, to offer an amendment to the substitute of Mr. Kastenmeier?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it will be.

Mr. COHEN. And would it be permissible to offer an amendment which has been proposed by Mr. Hutchinson, but not yet offered, either in my name or someone else's. If I offer it, striking Mr. Hutchinson's name with the permission of Mr. Hutchinson, if he does not wish to offer it?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I would have to advise the gentleman that the Kastenmeier substitute encompasses this.

Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Butler.

Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to inquire of the gentleman from Michigan if it is his intention to offer his proposed substitute in the event that the Kastenmeier substitute is defeated? Is it your intention, Mr. Hutchinson, to offer your amendment to the motion in the event that the Kastenmeier substitute is defeated?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Yes; it is my intention to do that.

But, I would like to say that I also intend to support the Kastenmeier substitute.

Mr. BUTLER. I didn't ask you that.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Well, I want that clear, I intend to vote for the Kastenmeier substitute.

The CHAIRMAN. For the purposes of an amendment, I recognize the gentleman from Ohio, who has a perfecting amendment.

Mr. LATTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In order that the Kastenmeier substitute be consistent with House Resolution 803, I would move to strike the period at the end of the last sentence of the resolution after "to" and add the following: "or such resolutions or other recommendations as it deems proper."

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Would the gentleman from Ohio yield?

Mr. LATTA. I will be happy to.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. As the author of the substitute, I would completely agree to the perfecting amendment of the gentleman from Ohio.

Mr. LATTA. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. And without objection, the amendment is agreed to. Mr. BROOKS. Question, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The question is now on the

Mr. RAILSBACK. Mr. Chairman, parlimentary inquiry.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will state it.

Mr. RAILSBACK. Am I correct that if the Kastenmeier substitute is voted down, it would then be in order for Mr. Hutchinson to offer his amendment to the Flowers resolution and then we could vote on that. is that correct?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it would be.

Mr. BROOKS. Question.

The CHAIRMAN. The question is on the substitute offered by the gentleman from Wisconsin.

All those in favor of the substitute please say aye.

[Chorus of "ayes."]

The CHAIRMAN. All those opposed?

[Chorus of "noes."]

Mr. FLOWERS. I ask for a rollcall.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair calls for division.

Mr. FLOWERS. Record vote, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. A record vote is demanded. All those in favor of the substitute please vote aye, and all those opposed vote no, and the clerk will call the roll.

The CLERK, Mr. Donohue.

Mr. DONOHUE. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Brooks.

Mr. BROOKS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Kastenmeier.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Edwards.

Mr. EDWARDS. Ave.

The CLERK. Mr. Hungate.

Mr. HUNGATE, Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Convers.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Aye, by proxy.

The CLERK. Mr. Eilberg.

Mr. EILBERG. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Waldie.

Mr. WALDIE. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Flowers.

Mr. FLOWERS. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Mann.

Mr. MANN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Sarbanes.

Mr. SARBANES. Ave.

The CLERK. Mr. Seiberling.

Mr. SEIBERLING. NO.

The CLERK. Mr. Danielson,
Mr. DANIELSON. NO.

The CLERK. Mr. Drinan.

Mr. DRINAN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Rangel.

Mr. RANGEL, Aye.

The CLERK. Ms. Jordan.

Ms. JORDAN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Thornton.

Mr. THORNTON. NO.

The CLERK. Ms. Holtzman.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. Owens.
Mr. OWENS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Mezvinsky.
Mr. MEZVINSKY. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. HUTCHINSON. Aye.
The CLERK. Mr. McClory.
Mr. MCCLORY. Aye.
The CLERK, Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Sandman.

Mr. SANDMAN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Railsback.

Mr. RAILSBACK, No.

The CLERK. Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. WIGGINS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Dennis.

Mr. DENNIS. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Fish.

Mr. FISH. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Mayne.

Mr. MAYNE. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Hogan.
Mr. HOGAN. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Butler.

Mr. BUTLER. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Cohen.

Mr. COHEN. No.

The CLERK. Mr. Lott.

[No response.]

The CLERK. Mr. Lott.

[No response.]

The CLERK. Mr. Froehlich.

Mr. FROEHLICH. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Moorhead.

Mr. MOORHEAD. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Maraziti.

Mr. MARAZITI. Aye.

The CLERK. Mr. Latta.