ward position he did not think the | for that was not required. The noble question serious. That was his refuge. Lord had stated that there were conThere was another remark made by the tested Votes; but there would be exright hon. Gentleman-namely, that actly the same opportunity for testing this was not the time to bring this mat- these Votes whether these Votes were ter forward. That was the favourite taken on account or not, and the hon. method of meeting matters of this kind, Member would have as good an opporand the Chief Secretary knew very well tunity of opposing any of the Votes that there was no other opportunity when they were dealt with in Committee but when the adjournment of the House of Supply as if no Vote on Account were was moved for Members to elicit infor- taken. He, therefore, hoped the hon. mation. It seemed to him that the time Member would be content to allow the of the Chief Secretary never would come. Government to take a certain amount on He only wished it would; and, with re- these contested Votes. gard to these particular Charges which the noble Lord, with his knowledge of Irish life, laid so much stress upon, the noble Lord knew that everything that was said by the Judges was rehearsed in the Privy Council. The way the little game was worked was this. The Government wished to suspend a province or a county, and the Privy Council and the Judges received the tip from the Chief Secretary, and the Judges then went down into the country and made a great cry about its condition, which they painted in the blackest hues they could. It was by these means that the Coercion Act was passed. Mr. Justice Fitzgerald, at Cork, knew beforehand that it was the intention of the Government to apply for coercion, and he having blown the last trumpet in Cork, the Chief Secretary came to the House and read long extracts out of his Charges. He put it to the noble Lord whether he ought to treat the Judges' Charges seriously? They were echoes of Dublin Castle, and ought only to be treated in that way. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH thought every hon. Member would agree that this discussion had lasted long enough; and, with regard to the observations of the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), he should be very glad, if possible, to accept his proposition; but he felt that it would not be in his power to do so. The Votes referred to were taken on the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee of 1866 and 1867, who advised that Votes on Account should be taken for such Services as had already been sanctioned by Parliament. Therefore, it was not the fact that only such sums should be taken as were necessary. These Votes had been examined most carefully, and nothing had been asked MR. HICKS said, he thought the House was entitled to ask the President of the Local Government Board for an answer to the appeal made to him by the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) and the hon. Member for Mid Somersetshire (Mr. R. H. Paget). The Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention Bill, no doubt, dealt with a subject of great interest, and was intended to remove a serious evil. It covered a great tract of country, and introduced into local taxation a principle of which MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not at liberty to discuss the merits of this Bill on the Motion before the House. MR. HICKS said, he was only desirous to learn from the President of the Local Government Board whether it was intended to proceed with the Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention Bill? MR. R. N. FOWLER wished to say one word in consequence of what fell from the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds). That hon. Member had charged the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock and the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire with wasting the time of the House. With regard to the noble Lord, he would remind the hon. Member of an authority which he would respect-namely, the Prime Minister. In a debate last Session the Prime Minister had paid a high compliment to the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock on the speech which he delivered upon the course taken by the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), and other Members, in regard to the financial policy of the Government. The hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire had been a Member of the Duke of Richmond's Commission, and he would appeal to the House whether the hon. Member was in the habit of wasting the time of the House? He MR. MACARTNEY said, that with reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy), he did not believe that the Judges did act in any way in concert with the Privy Council in getting up mock statements with regard to the state of the country. believed that they stated the facts that appeared before them; but he was happy to say that in one part of Ireland, where the population was more loyal and industrious than in other parts, one Judge had had the agreeable task this year of receiving from the Sheriff a pair of white gloves. That was in the county which he himself represented. MR. BIGGAR said, the Government seemed to him to have acted in an erratic manner, and from some underhand motive, and to have obtained information unobservable by any one individual from any part of the outside world. He was very much opposed to these Votes being brought on at this time of the night; and he thought it would very much facilitate Business if the Government postponed the four or five Votes suggested by the hon. Member for Queen's County. The first Vote was for the Privy Seal, which was a Vote that could not be defended upon its merits, and he would suggest that the Government should agree to postpone the contested Votes. The Land Bill could not last more than another week, and on Monday those Votes could be properly discussed instead of having to be discussed twice over. Question put, and agreed to. Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. Central Office of the Supreme Court, &c. England: Law Charges Public Prosecutor's Office 600 Criminal Prosecutions 30,000 Chancery Division, High Court of Jus tice 15,000 15,000 15,000 Probate, &c. Registries, High Court of Wreck Commission port) Customs 60,000 Inland Revenue 120,000 £ Post Office 220,000 500,000 Post Office Packet Service 100,000 10,000 Post Office Telegraphs 160,000 20,000 1,000 Total for Revenue Departments £660,000 MR. DILLWYN said, after the discussion that had taken place, he did not wish to occupy time beyond saying that he unwillingly assented to taking Votes on Account, and always had objected to a course that gave the possibility of Supply being put off to the very end of the Session. He hoped the Government 120,000 would not make use of this power. He was aware that the Government on this occasion were not to blame for the delay 500 in Supply, and that the circumstances 200 were altogether exceptional; but he 2,000 could not avoid expressing his opinion that if Supply were taken in a more business-like manner the necessity for Votes on Account would not arise. 200 300 £ 40,000 10,000 MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he would not divide the Committee on the Vote; but if any other hon. Member had felt it his duty to do so, he would have supported him. He endorsed the remarks of the hon. Member for Swansea, and protested against a system that relegated to the last week of the Session Votes which the Committee were then not in a position to scrutinize. The Prime Minister had said Votes did not obtain the scrutiny they deserved; and he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) was convinced that a needless burden was thrown on the public by the fact that details of the expenditure by Public Departments were not investigated as they ought to be by the Committee. He thought he might lay claim to moderation when he abstained from a detailed criticism, for he had very strong feelings with regard to the Votes he had already mentioned. He would put aside the Irish Votes, which he thought he should be justified in challenging in any case, and refer only to one Vote. When the Party opposite were in Opposition they were prepared to do away with the Office of Privy Seal, and it was only retained by a majority of 32. It was this Vote that he sought the opportunity of challenging, and he thought it was hardly reasonable for the Government to refuse the postponement of the five Votes he had asked for. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH | said, he recognized the moderation with which the hon. Member had urged his request, and he should have been glad if, without inconvenience to the Public Service, he could have acceded to the postponement. But he reminded the hon. Member that he would, in a short time, have the opportunity of raising the discussion he desired. MR. HEALY said, as there had been a lengthened discussion on Supply, his remarks should be few. There was a Vote for Secret Service, and he wished to know how it was possible to make any practical use of this, seeing the unskilful manner in which those who were set to do the work of spies went about their business. It was usual to set spies on the houses of Irish Members; but this was done in such an unskilful manner that it was perfectly obvious to those concerned that they were being watched. How was it possible for the detectives, and those who got bloodmoney, to be of any use in hunting up murderers of the Lefroy description when they carried on their system in such Mr. Arthur O'Connor a manner that the objects of their attention were perfectly conscious of what was going on? He did not so much complain that the Home Office should have an interest in watching his movements, and perhaps Irish Members might find interest in setting a watch on the private habits of Members of the Government; but he could not think the detective system was efficient, when even such unsuspecting persons as Irish Members knew exactly when the spying was carried on. But when the time arrived he would refer to this-his point now was this. The other night they had a discussion on the Public Works (Ireland) Department, and the burden thrown upon it by the Land Bill; and he asked the noble Lord whether they should have any opportunity of discussing the Board of Works and the proposed scheme of reform, and the noble Lord told him they would not. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, the discussion would be on the Vote, not on the scheme of reform. MR. HEALY said, he was told there was no scheme of reform. Now, he complained that they were induced to pass a certain class of Bills on the representation that reforms would be carried out in the Board; that changes, at all events, would be made in the Office. The noble Lord's answer was that the Board would be strengthened; but he now understood that the strengthening was merely the addition of another Commissioner, and this appointment was absolutely necessary to bring matters within the legal provisions of an Act of Parliament. The Board had actually been below its legal strength. When the subject came on for discussion he should offer a few remarks upon it, when, perhaps, the noble Lord would be better prepared. There was another feature he desired to mention in connection with the Registrar General's Department, which was concerned in the preparation of the Census Returns. It was astonishing that the English Department issued their Abstract so much earlier than the Irish Abstract was issued. It was much to the credit of the English Department that they did this, considering the amount of work in each case. In connection with the Census of 1871, he had occasion to speak with a gentleman in the Irish Census Department, and asked him when he MR. HEALY asked the Vice President of the Council if he would postpone the Bill for a day or two? thought all the Returns would be out? | His reply was characteristic. He said, with judicious management, he thought they might be made to last four or five years more, and this was two years after the Census. MR. W. E. FORSTER said, he might be allowed to remark that this year the Irish Abstract was out first. MR. HEALY said, if that were so, he was glad to hear it. All he could say was that he had had the English Census delivered among his Parliamentary Papers, but not the Irish. Another point he desired to question was the Irish Law Charges and costs for prosecutions. There was no information as to the cost of the State Trials, and he would like to know from the Attorney General for Ireland if any statement could yet be given, before the matter came on for discussion? It was seven or eight months since the trials, and it was not too much to ask now for some idea of the cost. House resumed. Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock. Committee to sit again upon Wednesday. VETERINARY SURGEONS BILL-[Lords.] (Mr. Mundella.) [BILL 214.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Mundella.) MR. MUNDELLA said, the provisions of the Bill were well known, and it had been amply discussed in the other House. He hoped the second reading might now be taken. He might add that it was as much in the interests of the owners of cattle and of humanity as of veterinary surgeons. MR. WHITLEY said, the Bill contained one highly objectionable clause, which would allow a man who simply had practised for some years, though without any qualification whatever, to represent himself as duly qualified. He did think that such a clause should be expunged, and he believed the President of the Veterinary College had drawn attention to the point. MR. MUNDELLA said, that was really a question for Committee; but, at the same time, he might say that the President of the College had called upon him, and had urged him to take charge of the Bill. There was a clause that would allow a man, who had practised for five years, to continue that practice hereafter; and he thought that such a term of practice argued that a man was qualified. Motion agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed for Friday. METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (MONEY) BILL.-[BILL 204.] (Lord Frederick Cavendish, Mr. John Holms.) SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH DR. LYONS desired to remind the Government of the necessity of a Veterinary College for Ireland. Ireland stood very much in need of veterinary said, he hoped the House would allow surgeons, and strong representations this Annual Bill to be now read. There had been made to the Government on were various points to be raised in Comthe subject; and he begged to ask on behalf of many persons interested, whe-mittee, and that stage would be fixed at ther the Government could give any assurance that they would advise the issue of a Charter for an Irish Veterinary College? MR. W. E. FORSTER said, the entire question was before the Lord Lieutenant for consideration; he was not aware that the question would be raised now. He was not prepared to say the Government would advise the issue of the Charter. a time to allow of discussion. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Lord Frederick Cavendish.) MR. FIRTH hoped the Bill would be read a second time now; but he wished to call attention to the fact that it contained the power to raise £4,500,000, and this had never been discussed by the Representatives of the people of London. There were a number of items |