although they were not perhaps in accord with it. But President Wilson said that he was not in accord with it and not bound by it. Thus, a difference would be created between the United States on one hand, and France and Great Britain on the other, and this was very undesirable. From the Italian point of view, what he desired was some transaction which would involve an agreement, but, failing that, he must claim the Treaty, however undesirable. He would seek every way of conciliation. For example, there had been the proposals of Mr. Lloyd George between April 20th and 23rd. Later, there had been the discussions between Col. House and Mr. Miller and himself. He desired ardently to get out of the difficulty with the agreement of everyone. But, if not, he must demand the Treaty of London.

PRESIDENT WILSON said that he feared they were somewhat in danger of getting into a cul de sac. He wanted very earnestly to point out to his Italian colleague the situation as it presented itself to him as a whole. We could not move in two opposite directions at once, and yet the Italians appeared to be trying to do so. The Treaty of London was made in circumstances which had now altogether altered. He was not referring now to the fact of the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but to the partnership of the world in the development of peace, and the attention which had been directed by plain work-a-day people to this partnership as a basis of peace. When the Treaty of London had been entered into, there had only been a partnership between a few Great Powers Russia, France, Great Britain, with Belgium and Serbia, against Germany, Austria and Turkey. As Belgian and Serbian soil had been violated, the only voluntary partners were France, Great Britain and Russia. He understood that these Powers had wished to induce Italy to become a partner, and for this reason had entered into the Treaty of London. At that time the world had not perceived that the war was a matter of common concern. He knew this because his own people had gone through this phase. He himself, probably before most of his people, saw the effect that the war was going to have on the future destinies and political development of the world. Slowly, at first very slowly, the world had seen that something was being done which cut at the roots of individual liberty and action. When that was realised, there was a common impulse to unite against the Central Empires. Thus, there came into the war many peoples whose interest was absolutely separate from any territorial question that was European in character. They came in for motives that had no connection with territory or any advantage. They sought only the emancipation of the world from an intolerable threat. Then there came new ideas, and the people of the world began to perceive

that they had a common purpose. They realised that it was not only Belgium and Serbia, but all the small States that were threatened. Next there was a realisation of the rights of minorities and small groups of all kinds. The light broadened out into a perception of the final settlement that was at hand. It was about this time that he himself had made his address to Congress on the results of the war. His own address had taken place, he thought, three days after Mr. Lloyd George's address to the House of Parliament. The only difference between the two addresses was that he summed up his in 14 points. Both his speech and that of the Prime Minister of Great Britain contained the same line of thought and ideas. They stated in their speeches what was coming into the consciousness of the world. When the Armistice was reached, his own statements had been accepted as the basis not only of the Armistice, but also of the peace. These ideas had by this time taken possession of all the world, and even the Orient was beginning to share them. Then came the League of Nations as a practical thing,-up to then, it had been regarded as of academic interest-and the nations of the world desired to achieve peace on that basis; hence, when the Peace conference began, the whole platform of the Peace had been laid down. This platform had no relation to the ideas which belonged to the old order in European politics, namely, that the stronger Powers could dispose of the weaker. Great Britain and France had no right because they were strong to hand over peoples who were weak. The new conception did not admit of this. If these principles were insisted on, they would violate the new principles. There would then be a reaction among the small nations that would go to the very heart of the Peace of the world: for all these small nations, when they saw other nations handed over. would say, "Our turn will come next." One of the reasons for which the United States people had gone to war was that they were told that the old-fashioned methods were dead. Hence, if Italy insisted on the Treaty of London, she would strike at the roots of the new system and undermine the new order. The United States would be asked under the Covenant of the League of Nations to guarantee the boundaries of Italy, and they could not do so if this Treaty were insisted on. There was one question which would not be susceptible of solution. If Italy insisted on the Treaty of London, as M. Clemenceau had pointed out, we could not ask YugoSlavia to reduce her army below the point necessary to maintain her safety against Italy. Yugo-Slavia would never do it. It would be impossible to use force against her-against the very power whose violation had caused the outbreak of the present war. This process could not be repeated to accomplish the ends the Italians had in

view. If he was to be the spokesman and the spiritual representative of his people, he could not consent to any people being handed over without their consent. But he could consent to any people being handed over who stated that they wished to be. He was willing that Italy should have any part on the eastward slope of the Istrian Peninsula whose population would vote to be attached to Italy. Only he could not assent to any population being attached that did not so vote. He wanted to point out to M. Orlando that Great Britain and France could not hand over any part of YugoSlavia to Italy, and that it could not be a legal transaction, except in accordance with the general peace: that is to say, only in the event of all parties being in agreement. It was constantly urged in the Italian Press and by Italian spokesmen that they did not want to abandon the Italians on the other side of the Adriatic. Was it not possible to obtain all she desired by means of a plebiscite? There would be no risk to Italy to leave the operation of a plebiscite to be carried out under the League of Nations. Italy herself would be a member of the League of Nations, and there would be no possibility of her being treated unfairly. If Italy did not take advantage of this, she would be establishing her enemies on her eastern borders. Thus there would be a beginning again of the evils that had arisen in the Balkans. Beyond the boundaries of Italy would be the YugoSlavs with their eyes turned towards the population which had been placed under Italy by the powerful Western nations. It was impossible for Italy to adopt both methods. Either she must abandon the new methods altogether, or else she must wholly abandon the old methods and enter into the new world with the new methods under conditions more hopeful for peace than had ever before prevailed.

M. ORLANDO said he had no difficulty in recognising that President Wilson's speech was perfectly logical, provided that his hypotheses were correct. What he disputed, however, was the correctness of these hypotheses. He could not admit that the Treaty of London was a violation of the principles of justice and right. The Treaty of London had merely anticipated the boundaries which would have to be drawn. All through the present Conference terrible problems had presented themselves, involving ethnical, geographical, strategical and other considerations, and in every case great difficulties had had to be surmounted in order to reach a solution. The Treaty of London had merely anticipated these difficulties. The Treaty of London was indeed a compromise transaction. It was a compromise because of the renunciation by Italy of Fiume and half of Dalmatia. including the Italian towns of Spalato and Trau. It was a compromise because of the admixture of races. Hence, he could not

admit the premise of President Wilson that the Treaty of London was, without discussion, a violation of right and justice. Whether it was good or bad, it was a compromise. Experience showed that for Italy it was a bad compromise, because Italy did not get satisfaction on Fiume. He deeply regretted this, but accepted it in a spirit of compromise. However, if the Treaty was not acceptable another solution must be sought. He much regretted that he could not possibly accept a plebiscite. His first reason for rejecting it was that it would prolong the present state of anxiety in Italy. His second objection was the complexity of the problems. He could not deny, for example, that on the eastern slope of the Istrian Alps, the majority of the inhabitants were Slavs. Consequently, a plebiscite would not give the right result to Italy. But in this case he had to seek a different principle from the ethnographical principle. namely, that the line of the Alps was the defence of his country. His third reason-and he did not wish to make comparisons detrimental to other peoples-was that there was a different state of culture in Jugo-Slavia from Italy, because there was a different state of civilisation. It was quite true that Italian military authorities had, in many places, got on perfectly well with the inhabitants. But, nevertheless, in these conditions he could not count with any confidence on the sincerity of the plebiscite. These were the three reasons why he could not accept the proposal for a plebiscite. He was ready to try and find a solution, but he could not see one at present. His conclusion unfortunately, therefore, was that an impasse had been reached. In these circumstances, what course was open to him? He had only his Treaty to make an appeal to. He was not a Shylock, demanding his pound of flesh from the Jugo-Slavs. Great Britain and France had given their adhesion to this arrangement. He could not say he was satisfied with the Treaty and he regretted profoundly the difficulty it had created with the United States. But as no other way could be found out, he was bound to adhere to this attitude.

PRESIDENT WILSON said that he did not characterise the Treaty in the manner M. Orlando had suggested, but only as inconsistent with the new order of settlements, namely, that the ethnical principle should be adopted except where other paramount considerations, such as the existence of the Alps, were introduced. If there was no doubt the principle of self-determination should be followed. He reminded M. Orlando that, in the case of the Polish corridor, where very strong strategical considerations had applied, this territory had not been assigned to Poland, because there had been a solid German block, notwithstanding that the essential railway connecting Poland with the sea ran through this corridor. We had not even felt at liberty

to assign the Port of Dantzig itself to Poland. Moreover, he did not contemplate a plebiscite without effective supervision. If any plebiscite took place it would be carefully observed and overlooked, and no plebiscite under coercion would be accepted. In the most friendly way he wished to ask whether if he, himself, stated his reasons publicly and made the proposal he had made this afternoon, that is, that the territory between the line of the crest of the Istrian Peninsula and the line of the Treaty of London should be granted a plebiscite, would M. Orlando feel equally at liberty and justified in publicly stating his objections?

M. ORLANDO said that he first wished to dissipate a misunderstanding. When he had spoken of the intimidation of the Slavs, he had not spoken of anything which was likely to occur before or during a plebiscite. He spoke rather of the fears and apprehensions for the future, which would deter people from voting for Italy. Consequently, a genuine vote would not be obtained. It was not at the moment of the plebiscite that he anticipated constraint but in the future. So far as concerned Poland whatever the result of the plebiscite, some 1,700,000 Germans would be assigned to Poland. If the whole of the Italian claims were granted and the Austrian figures, notoriously inaccurate as they were, were taken as true, not half this number of aliens would be assigned to Italy. As regards President Wilson's last question, he would naturally try and avoid any public statement, particularly at the present time when attempts were being made to reach a solution, but, if President Wilson should make such a public statement, he would reply as he had replied to-day and would give the same arguments.

PRESIDENT WILSON said that he hoped that before M. Orlando reached a final conclusion, he would consult with his colleagues. He hoped he would remember the difficulty of carrying out the Treaty of London, even if it were correct to. He had joined in creating a machine and method that could not be used for that purpose. He hoped that he would discuss the question again and that he was not tired of trying to find some new course.

M. ORLANDO said that he could reply at once that whenever conciliation was proposed, he would not refuse. He, therefore, accepted President Wilson's request.

M. CLEMENCEAU said that what struck him was that M. Orlando never made a proposal. From the beginning of these discussions he had never once made any definite proposal. He had made a claim to Fiume. He had applied the principle of self-determination to Fiume. But when he came to discuss Dalmatia he had dropped the principle. There was another contradiction in his method. He had claimed the Treaty of London as regards Dalmatia, but when it came