DISCUSSION.

The PresidenT: Gentlemen, you have listened to a most admirable paper. It almost amounts to a text-book on the meter question. It is before you for discussion. Mr. Rusby would like to answer all questions that you wish to ask him.

Mr. A. S. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, this paper elucidates in a very clear way a question which I believe has worried, at some time, about all the people in the gas business, as well as a number of the meter makers. We have all been worried at what is commonly termed " bleachers," more so, I believe, in the East, since we began using Texas oil in making water gas, as that seems to absorb the diaphragm oils more readily than straight coal gas or than water gas made from Pennsylvania oils or Ohio oils. There is nothing I can say, Mr. President, that would add anything to this matter. I would like to extend to Mr. Rusby my thanks for the very careful manner in which this is worked up. It will be of immense use to us.

MR. T. D. MILLER: Mr. President, I would like to ask Mr. Rusby if this mineral oil that he refers to in the paper is the only one that he found he could use that has this tendency to saturate the diaphragm through capillarity.

MR. RUSBY: Other oils will saturate the diaphragm through capillarity. As stated in my paper, however, our reasons for using this particular mineral oil are that it is chemically inert and not liable to decomposition at ordinary temperatures, and is cheap. It must be free from any acid used in refining.

A MEMBER: What kind of oil was it?

MR. RUSBY: An ordinary light, pure mineral machine oil. MR. T. D. MILLER: Mr. President, we had an experience with the bleaching of diaphragm leathers by the gas supplied through our river pipe to Algiers, which was a high pressure service. We first installed for this service wet meters, but we soon discovered the gas was so dry that the wet meters required filling about twice a week. We then removed the wet meters and installed dry meters, but in the course of a few months we found the leathers bleached so badly that they would pass

gas like a sieve. This became a very serious question with us, and I hope that the suggestions of Mr. Rusby will aid us very materially in treating this character of trouble. At the time we used a mixture of oils charged heavily with graphite, which we introduced through the valves and allowed to soak on the inside of the leathers, after which the oil was drained off and the meter put back into service, which gave us fairly good results. If the method of dipping the leathers into oil, while in service, will solve the problem, so far as distribution of compressed gas is concerned, Mr. Rusby has undoubtedly given us a valuable paper.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything further, gentlemen? There is a call for Mr. Spangenberg. Is Mr. Spangenberg in the room? If so, we would like to hear from him on this subject.

MR. SPANGENBERG : Mr. President, I was not present at the reading of the paper, but I can verify everything that Mr. Rusby has said in his paper. It is a matter with which I have had some experience. This method of wetting the diaphragms in these dipping meters with oil is certainly a good solution of a troublesome problem.

MR. K. M. MITCHELL? I would like to ask if Mr. Rusby can tell us where this oil can be obtained, and about what it costs per gallon?

MR. RUSBY: It is merely an ordinary good quality light machine oil, such as can be obtained anywhere. I am sorry that I cannot at the moment state the specific gravity. Its cost is about fifteen cents a gallon. Our reasons for using it are somewhat theoretical, but appear good; our experience to date has not been very lengthy, but has been quite favorable. If we find out anything to the contrary we will be glad to make it known.

MR. A. S. MILLER: Mr. Rusby, you know that with some gas men it has always been a sort of superstition that petroleum was bad for leather. I would like to know how long your experience in using petroleum for this purpose has run, and whether you have found any tendency to injure the leather.

MR. RUSBY: We have been using it in some meters for about eighteen months. This, of course, in comparison with the length of life that is expected of a meter diaphragm, is a very short time. We cannot say positively that the oil will not have injurious action upon the leather, but we cannot see any reason that it should.

MR. A. S. MILLER: I see no reason why it should not be entirely satisfactory, but it has been one of my superstitions, which I seem to have grown up with the belief was a fact.

MR. RUSBY: I doubt that any injury will result, but only further experience will determine this. We will be very glad to hereafter make known to the Association, or to any single inquirer, the results of our further experience.

MR. T. D. MILLER: I would like to ask Mr. Rusby if he has tried to use paraffine on any of these meters?

MR. RUSBY: I think we did. We tried this and a large number of similar substances, but all were cut by the gas vapors. The German engineers of whom I spoke in my paper, state that xyelene is a powerful solvent for the diaphragm oils, removing even the refractory oil compounds on the textile diaphragms. Cut holes right through it.

MR. A. S. MILLER Mr. President, as my neighbor here has just said, this is so new, and this whole subject is following such a different line from anything which was ever followed before that I feel that it cannot be discussed here in the way that it deserves. I have not the slightest doubt that everything will be found just exactly as Mr. Rusby states, but as he states, he is simply stating the results of some preliminary experiments, and it will take time to say whether he is working on the right track. From my own point of view, I should say there was every indication that he has started work on the right track, and on a track that is going to be of very great benefit to the gas industry. This matter of meters being out of proof has been a more serious one in later years than in previous years. I wish, therefore, to move that a hearty vote of thanks be given to Mr. Rusby for the benefit that he has given us of the tremendous amount of work that he has done. Motion seconded.

MR. SHELTON: Mr. President, before that motion is put I would like to ask that opportunity of discussion be extended to a visitor who has come a long distance, and whom we have the pleasure of having with us here today. He may have some thoughts on this meter subject that would be very instructive for us to hear. I refer to Mr. Thomas G. Marsh, of England, who has traveled some four thousand miles to be with us. While primarily not here on business, he has nevertheless timed his visit so as to be able to be present at this first meeting of the American Gas Institute. I think that the members of the Institute would be very glad to have him say any word which he may wish, and to give us a chance to welcome him. We know that when any of us go abroad, and, first and last, there have been a good many of us that have had that opportunity, and when we have had the good fortune to be present at some of the English meetings, we have both individually and in our association capacity been most cordially welcomed, and I think I scarcely need to say that it is our disposition that we should be second to no one in extending courtesies and a welcome to any accredited, capable, successful gas man, especially one coming such a long distance. Mr. Marsh has been identified with the meter interests for many years. He is one of the authorities on such questions in England, and we have the good fortune in having him with I do not know whether he has perused this paper or is in a position to make any accurate criticisms upon anything that Mr. Rusby has said as yet, but I certainly believe that I am right in saying that we would be glad to have Mr. Marsh say any word that he may see fit, and give us any thought that he may have on the discussion of this particular question. (Applause.)

us.

THE PRESIDENT : It is with very considerable pleasure that I offer Mr. Marsh the courtesy of the floor, and in doing so I am sure that I voice the sentiment of all of the members of the Institute. We should be very much pleased to hear from Mr. Marsh.

MR. THOMAS G. MARSH, Manchester, England : Mr. President and brother gas men, I thank you very heartily for

I

what you have said with regard to my fellow countrymen. have only one regret now that I have come to America, and it is, this being my first visit, that I did not come over here and see you many years ago. If I had, in all probability I might have become as much an American as the most of you that I see around me.

Before I attempt in any way to criticize or speak upon the paper, which, I am sorry to say, I have not had the opportunity to glance over until I came into this room, I must first pay what I consider is a debt due to you. When I came over here I was received in the most broad-minded and generous manner. As a gas man I felt desirous of seeing what was being done in this country, and in the very short time that I have been here I have been received, and welcomed, and shown over various works and plants. At times I might have been a little dense in comprehension, but very great care has been given to make me fully understand the matter. when I go back to England I shall be able to say that our brother gas men over the water are most broad-minded in that in what they are doing they are willing to show it to a stranger, and I shall say to them emphatically that we in England ought to act in a reciprocal manner. (Applause.)

And

Now Mr. President, I am sure that I cannot add much to the facts given in the paper. If I can say a few words, however, about one or two points I shall be only too glad to do so. Your great, your mighty country, has been blessed by Providence with many things which we have not ourselves. We have in my own country an amplitude of ore. We have an amplitude of coal, which has helped to develop my country, and to bring it up to the proud position that it holds as being one of the smallest in area and yet certainly one of the strongest in the world. That has come about very largely, perhaps, through the energy of the people, but more so from the country having been blessed with an ample amount of coal, an ample amount of minerals, and to help matters on we had very fair transport arrangements. But when I came over here I find that you not only have coal, but that you have minerals, and that you have natural gas, which comes upward from the earth with but little comparative cost to