MR. GRAF: I would like to inquire if any gentlemen can tell me what would be the increased cost in the trolley construction in order to provide a proper return feeder? We know about what it costs us to return this current on our mains. What would be the increased cost to the trolley company per mile of track? What percentage would it be? Would it be five, ten or fifteen per cent.? If we can get it in percentage, we can get it down to dollars and cents.

THE PRESIDENT: Can anybody answer Mr. Graf's question?

MR. WITHERBY: Mr. President, I heard the question, but I do not know I can give the exact figures. It is entirely a question of the amount of current that the trolley company is using and the amount of feeders they already have in position. I know of one case where the gas company and the railway company looked over the situation in some way, and I think it was found that the trolley company would have to expend, in order to put in the amount of feeder wire that was necessary, something like one hundred thousand dollars. Nothing came of it. It was a matter of indifference to them how the current got back, whether it used the gas company's mains or the water company's mains, they were not going to be put to the expense of putting in copper to stop it. As to the actual percentage, it would be hard to state it. feeder wires would carry a return current for most any size of pipe. It would protect a four-inch line or a thirty-inch line, and so you can hardly use that as a basis of comparison. The existing condition in any particular locality that must be met must be looked into carefully and properly worked out. think the more up-to-date railroad systems of the country today are placing pretty nearly the proper amount of copper that is required, but on the small trolley roads in the smaller places, and on some of the interurban lines, they pay little or no attention to the matter, and do not seem to care very much what damage they inflict on the other fellow.

The same size of

MR. SUMMERS: Is it not true that some of the trolley companies have been carrying on experiments along their lines so as to get at data for making the feeders effective? I think

I have heard of that. In fact, I know of one company which established an experiment of that kind, but how successful it was I do not know, or how extensively the experiment was carried on.

THE PRESIDENT : That is done, I believe. I do not know with what measure of success.

MR. WITHERBY: The cast iron connection has been abandoned by all the companies that have tried it, and the proper bonding of the rails has been the most important thing. tried to take care of it. The electric welding process has not been satisfactory on account of expansion, and the companies which are at all up to date are now universally using copper wire.

THE PRESIDENT:

Is there anything further, gentlemen?

Did Mr. Stillson want to make any further remarks?

MR. STILLSON: Mr. President, I wished to give you what data I had obtained. The idea was to determine whether we were preventing the flow of electricity over the service. We used a standard short coupling with rubber gaskets on one section of the test; on the other a special insulating coupling. There are really three conditions in the test.

I.

2.

3.

No resistance as on plain pipe.

Resistance of short coupling.

Resistance of insulating coupling.

The pipe itself has no resistance.

The short couplings with rubber gaskets had .06 ohms resistance in the experiment which we made.

The special insulated coupling, which was supposed to be an insulator, had 1.75 ohms resistance. In either one of these cases the amount of current that passed would be considerable, and would cause considerable damage. You can very easily get the drop of potential between your main and the rail, and knowing the ohmic resistance, calculate the amount of current passing from the rail to the main, or vice versa.

We attempted, in the above experiment, to get natural conditions, as the couplings tested were buried some six weeks or two months before being tested. Soil about test No. 2,

gravel and loam; about test No. 3, gravel. Points of contact in test being about four feet apart.

MR. WILLIAMSON : Mr. President, I do not see any reason why the electric companies should not take care of their leakage. Most of the gas companies I think take the ground that the electric companies ought to take care of their leakage just the same as we take care of the leakage on our mains. It does not make any difference whether they want to take care of it or not, or whether it is going to cause them expense. They can take care of it, and it does not make any difference what it costs. They ought to be made to take care of it.

Mr. Andrews: The question was brought up a few moments ago as to whether the cast joint of street railway lines was effective. In the city of Duluth where the temperature varies anywhere from ninety above to forty below, that type of joint is used with perfect satisfaction. They have been used for the last five years, and we have no trouble from electrolysis so far as we can observe.

THE PRESIDENT: The motion was that the report be accepted and the committee continued. All in favor of the motion as stated will signify by saying "Aye." Contrary minds. It is carried.

MR. D. McDONALD: Mr. President, now I wish to renew the motion which was ruled out of order a few moments ago, that it is the sense of the members of this association, based on experience, that when the under-ground pipes become paths for the electric currents of street railways, the pipes will be damaged and in many cases destroyed, and that there is no way of laying such pipes or protecting them by coating which will prevent such destruction.

Now gentlemen, I make this simply for the purpose of putting this Institute of men who have an opportunity to know about this, on record as saying that while they may to some extent obviate this difficulty they cannot prevent it, and so far as we can determine this question the courts will be influenced very largely, I think, by the evidence of so many

men who have had an opportunity to know just what the effect of electrolysis has been. I think we ought to go on record as expressing the opinion of the men who know, so far as we can obtain it, so that the burden may be placed on the men who have created the trouble.

Motion seconded.

THE PRESIDENT: Gentlemen, you hear the motion made by Mr. McDonald. I will not attempt to repeat it. Are there any further remarks?

MR. RICHARDS: I want to say that the street railway companies alone are responsible for the trouble. They are the ones that should be made to settle. They alone are responsible in every direction and in every particular for the harm and the danger and the expense which the gas companies have been put to. When we run a main through a street and have a leak in that main, and an explosion occurs, the gas company alone is responsible. Why should it not be the same way with the electric companies who allow this dangerous element to escape from their wires? There are means by which the current can be controlled, and we ought to go upon record unitedly in placing the blame where it belongs, and that is upon the trolley companies and not upon the gas companies.

THE PRESIDENT: Any further remarks, gentlemen, on this motion? All in favor of the motion as stated will signify by saying "Aye." Contrary minds, "No." The motion is carried.

The next is the

REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON NEXT PLACE OF

MEETING.

Mr. Witherby, is your Committee ready to report?

MR. WITHERBY: Mr. President and Gentlemen of the Institute: Your Committee on place of next meeting have found it an impossible task to try to suit every one. The last two meetings were held in western cities, Milwaukee and Chicago, and naturally the East comes in next. Now that we

have grown to such a healthy, sturdy crowd, ordinary hotel accommodations are going to be taxed to find a place where we can all be taken care of in a fairly good way. After looking the situation over carefully, your Committee have decided unanimously in favor of Washington, D. C. (Applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: Gentlemen, you have heard the report of the Committee on the place of the next meeting. What is your pleasure?

MR. RAMSdell: Move it be adopted.

Motion seconded.

MR. EGNER: Mr. President, I am not interested to the extent of one cent whether the Institute comes to Norfolk next year or not, but I was commissioned by the Jamestown Exposition, who, as you know, are going to hold a great exposition in Norfolk next year, to invite the Institute to come there. We have a very large building, expressly erected for just such occasions, on the exposition grounds. There are two very large halls in it, both of them larger than this room here, and with any quantity of committee rooms-seventeen in all, I believe-and with all other usual accommodations. I was authorized to offer them all to the Institute free of cost. I now do not believe you will come, but as your Committee did not see fit to make mention of this courteous invitation, gentlemen, I just wanted to tell you that you were heartily invited to do so. I think, however, this invitation should not have been by-passed without some acknowledgment. I will see you all at Washington, and I hope when you get as far as Washington that some of you will come down to Norfolk and see the great show, which, in some ways, will be the best that has ever happened in this country, and especially from a military and naval point of view, as the greatest armies and navies of the world have promised to be represented upon this occasion. Norfolk is a small place compared with New York, Chicago or St. Louis, but I am sure you will not regret your visit to this fast becoming metropolis of the South. There are a great many points of interest to be seen aside from the attractions of the exposition, mainly in the historical line;