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Senator WAGNER. In other words, there is no right, is your theory; the Government has no right? Lieutenant Commander

Dodd. That is one of the ways of looking at it.

Senator WAGNER. An enforceable right.

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. That is one of the ways of looking at the question.

Senator Dill. Then why license these people to use the patent?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. Because that question has not been decided, and until it is decided there is always the possibility of suing them

Senator Dill (interposing). Has the Government any direct licenses?
Lieutenant Commander DODD. No, sir.
Senator DILL. Always cross licenses?
Lieutenant Commander DODD. Always and only cross licenses.

Senator Dill. Does the Government own any patents other than those taken from the Alien Property Custodian?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. Yes, sir.
Senator Dill. Does it own any others besides those?
Lieutenant Commander DODD. Yes, sir.

Senator Dill. I am not speaking of those that it takes from its employees.

Lieutenant Commander Dopp. No, sir. I understand you to speak of the sole right and title to patents.

Senator DILL. Yes.

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes; the Government has some of those.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did it get those?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. It got those from the circumstances surrounding the invention; that is, those circumstances surrounding the general employer and employee relation.

Senator Dill. But I asked you whether there were any other than those in the employer relation; whether they have gotten any outside of the employer relation and from the Alien Property Custodian? Have you got any patents of this kind: Consider I am an independent and private citizen, and suppose I secure a patent, will the Navy buy one from me?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. In some individual cases.
Senator DILL. It has some?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. It has bought some. About four, sir. And the reason for that purchase was because those inventions were of a technical military nature and the Government wished to keep them secret.

Senator Dill. I am not criticizing; I am just trying to get facts. Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes, sir.

Senator BROOKHART. Has the Attorney General ruled that the Government has the right to buy a patent?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes; the Government has the right.

Senator BROOKHART. Then I see no reason, if it becomes the owner, why it should not protect it, as Senator Wagner suggested, the same as an individual. I can see a difference in that position and in the policies of how much license fee we are going to charge for the use of it. But if it is in the hands of the Government, it seems to me they ought to protect it and prevent anybody else from using it and holding peo

ple up and make them pay a license on a patent which is inferior to the Government's rights.

Senator Dill. Let me ask you this question: Supposing Congress were to pass a resolution requesting the Navy Department to protect any rights it has in patents, would that be an expression of policy?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes, sir.

Senator Dill. I say request, because in our resolutions we usually use the word "request" instead of "direct."

Lieutenant Commander Dopp. That would establish the policy so far as the Navy Department is concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you would like to have that action before you proceed?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes; because that is action that will have very far-reaching effect.

The CHAIRMAN. Now that having been settled, if you were a Member of Congress, how would you vote on a matter of that kind? Do you believe Congress should instruct in such matter?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. I should think that it should be optional whether the Government sues or not, for this reason: There is a certain type of patents, or inventions which they cover, that do not flourish until the patent monopoly runs out. They then come into their own and the public benefits thereby. There is another type of patent which only flourishes under the protection of the monopoly. Therefore, if you adopt one policy to cover both, whether that policy is that the monopoly should be exercised, or that the patent should be dedicated to the public—that is what it would amount to—no matter which one of those policies were adopted, there would be a certain type of patents which would suffer thereby. And, therefore, it should be optional as to whether the Government prosecutes infringers and thereby maintains this patent monopoly.

The CHAIRMAN. The patent that does not flourish until after the expiration of the 17 years is the one that you think would be affected by the policy of Congress compelling the enforcement of patent rights?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The one that flourishes during the life of the patent

Lieutenant Commander DODD. Should be protected.

The CHAIRMAN. That, you think, the Government should exercise its rights oven?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that you believe that legislation should be enacted which would make it optional with the department to exercise that feature?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. Yes, sir.

Senator Dill. Coming back to these cross licenses, there is one more question I should like to ask you. As I understand, when firms cross license any patents they may secure, for the use of the Government, that, of course, does not give the Government any right to cross license again what they have secured by cross license? In other words, Atwater Kent gives the Government the use of any patents that he may secure; now, the Government in the use of those patents could not give away any patents that were given to it?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. No, sir; the patents are all nontransferrable.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further to ask?
Senator Dill. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything to suggest with reference to this bill, Commander?

Lieutenant Commander Dodd. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you look it over, and if you have any suggestions, will you make them?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. I have looked over the bill, and I see no place in this particular bill where this patent question can be placed.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think it would be desirable to refer to that in this bill, so far as it relates to communications?

Lieutenant Commander DODD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand adjourned until 10.30 o'clock to-morrow morning:

(Whereupon, at 12.10 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until the following day, Wednesday, May 29, 1929, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

COMMISSION ON COMMUNICATIONS

WEDNESDAY, MAY 29, 1929

UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE,

Washington, D. C. The committee met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, in room 412, Senate Office Building, Senator James Couzens presiding.

Present: Senators Couzens (chairman), Pine, Brookhart, Glenn, Kean, Dill, Wheeler, and Wagner.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order, please. Mr. Shoup, of the Department of Commerce, is with us this morning. Will you please give your full name and your position?

STATEMENT OF G. STANLEY SHOUP, CHIEF COMMUNICATIONS

SECTION, TRANSPORTATION DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. SHOUP. According to figures compiled from the list of submarine cables of the world, twelfth edition, December, 1928, published by the International Bureau of the Telegraph Union at Berne, the total mileage of the world's cables is 361,631.4 nautical miles. Of this amount, 55,764.5 nautical miles are operated by government administrations, 5,473.6 miles consist of German cables not yet apportioned, and 300,393.3 miles are operated by private companies. Now, of this mileage for private companies, 168,193.4 miles belong to British companies, 93,203.1 (of total American about 17,482 miles are owned by British companies but operated by American companies) miles to American companies, 18,414.4 miles to French companies, 9,937.3 to Italian companies, 8,416.4 to Danish companies, and 2,144.7 miles to German companies.

In connection with the above figures I might say that the total mileage given for British companies, namely, 168,193.4, including nearly 25,000 miles which, although for the immediate present are operated by the Pacific Cable Board, and the British Post Office, are soon to be operated by the British cable-radio merger, and for that reason they have been listed under private companies rather than government administrations.

Beginning with the nineteenth century there were numerous experiments conducted in underwater telegraphy. Probably the first in the United States was that made by Morse in 1842 in New York Harbor when he sent electrical impulses through an insulated copper wire. It is also related that in 1845 Ezra Cornell laid a 12-mile cable in the Hudson River, connecting Fort Lee and New York, which worked for several months.

Senator Dill. Does the British Government have any cables of its own?

51014-29—PT 97

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