Mr. MACDONALD. No. In this statement I am talking only of State roads; not of local roads.

Senator SMITH. Mr. MacDonald, have you any figures to show what the States have paid in these hard-surface roads that would accommodate vehicles that do interstate commerce business as compared with what the United States has spent-Government aid—and that show what the roads of America have cost and what per cent of that amount was donated by the Federal Government?

Mr. MACDONALD. I think that my statement is reasonably correct for that. You would have to pin it down to specific roads to make it any more specific. We can tell, of course, exactly what we have spent on any route.

Senator SMITH. So it is about nine to one in favor of the States? Mr. MACDONALD. In this discussion I am talking wholly about State roads, not about local roads. There is no interstate commerce or any heavy trucking or bus operations over the local roads. Incidentally, yes, but practically all of the commerce over the highways is carried on over the State roads, which include the Federal-aid system but are somewhat more extensive than the Federal-aid system. Senator BROOKHART. The Federal-aid system would all carry interstate commerce and would all be post roads and they would all be military roads.

Mr. MACDONALD. That is correct, sir.

Senator BROOKHART. And the secondary roads are some interstate commerce and some post roads, and thus are of minor value for military purposes.

Mr. MACDONALD. The national system of highways which was set up as a result of the 1921 act now includes 199,000 miles of the principal roads of the Nation, what we call the Federal-aid system. The roads that are under jurisdiction of the States are somewhat more extensive. They are 324,000 miles.

Senator SMITH. How much are the State roads?

Mr. MACDONALD. One hundred and ninety-nine thousand-the Federal aid.

Senator SMITH. And the total is what?

Mr. MACDONALD. The total of State roads is 324,000.

Senator BROOKHART. That 324,000 still does not include the county roads and the secondard roads?

Mr. MACDONALD. No, sir; that is just a little more than 10 per cent of the roads of the Nation. I mean that local roads would be almost 90 per cent.

Senator BROOKHART. Ninety per cent as against the 324,000?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir. Since 1916 in the improvement of 108,000 miles of the Federal-aid system-that varies as to type from graded and drained roads up to the best types of paving-we have expended Federal funds in the amount of $1,100,000,000, approximately.

Senator BROOKHART. You do not know the total the States have expended on the same roads?

Mr. MACDONALD. You will find on page 11 of the outline the total that has been expended for State highways from 1921 to 1929. Senator SMITH. That is how much?

Mr. MACDONALD. $6,000,000,000, of which Federal aid was $728,000,000.

Senator SMITH. $728,000,000 out of a total of $6,000,000,000?
Mr. MACDONALD. Yes. That is about 12 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you going to dwell on the question of this bill now?

Mr. MACDONALD. Yes, sir. The characteristics of the interstate. highway traffic and its relationship to interstate commerce are such as to require consideration of the effect of any Federal legislation upon both the private and the public carriers. With the permission of the committee, I should like Mr. James, who has had charge of these surveys, to point out the principles that we have developed as to the flow of traffic over the highways, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will be glad to hear from Mr. James. Now, or after you have completed?

Mr. MACDONALD. Right now.

Then I shall resume.

STATEMENT OF E. W. JAMES, CHIEF OF THE DIVISION OF HIGHWAY TRANSPORT, BUREAU OF PUBLIC ROADS, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, WASHINGTON, D. C.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your initials and your position, Mr. James?

Mr. JAMES. E. W. James. I am chief of the division of highway transport of the bureau.

The bureau feels in commenting on this bill that it would be of value to the committee if they could know some of the facts regarding the distribution of truck traffic and its general nature. The situation with regard to the increase of trucks, for instance, is not growing increasingly acute in the last 2 or 3 years; at the same rate, for instance, that it did in the first 5 years of the last 10-year period; that is, the rate of increase of registration is going down each year. The CHAIRMAN. Is that due to the depression, do you suppose? Mr. JAMES. Well, we do not know. It may be a perfectly natural condition. The decline is both a percentage decline and a decline in actual numerical increase of the truck registration. As nearly as we can compute the 1931 registration, on the basis of 36 States, which have so far reported, for instance, we conclude that there will be a 1.2 decrease of trucks in actual use in 1931 compared with 1930. That is simply an item of the picture indicating that the conditions generally are not now growing increasingly acute, at the same rate that they did.

Senator SMITH. You mean to say that there is that per cent less trucks in operation in 1931 than there was in 1930?

Mr. JAMES. As nearly as we can compute the 1931 registration based on 36 States which have reported.

Senator BARKLEY. You don't mean an actual decrease in trucks? Mr. JAMES. Yes, actual decrease in the registration.

Senator BARKLEY. I thought it was a decrease in the increase. Mr. JAMES. No; that is the actual decrease in the number of trucks.

Senator SMITH. That had previously been registered?

Mr. JAMES. Yes, sir. We also find a decrease in passenger cars for

1931.

The CHAIRMAN. And you will also find a decrease in freight cars in 1931?

Mr. JAMES. Exactly.

Senator FESS. Yes; that is likely due to the depression.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I do not think we should attach too much significance to that.

Mr. JAMES. No, that is just one of the items in the picture. We decided on this matter of truck registering as being an adequate index of the amount of traffic. The Bureau of Public Roads has repeatedly used it in our traffic surveys, and so far as we have been able to check these surveys by future observations we are satisfied that the registration is an adequate basis for such forecasts.

Senator BROOKHART. Trucks have not increased in size, then, on an average?

Mr. JAMES. On an average trucks have probably not increased in size. The use of heavier trucks for hire in the for-hire group of truck operation, is, however, higher than the truck average capacity in the entire registration of trucks. That is, we find that the average capacity of all trucks is somewhere from 12 to 134 tons, but the average capacity of those trucks which operate for hire, of the concerns and the men who make trucking a business, is about 21% tons. Senator FESS. In your registration would 1 motor pulling 2 trucks be 1 truck or 2 trucks?

Mr. JAMES. That would be a truck and a trailer. We would classify that a little differently. The combinations are varied, a truck with a semitrailer or a truck with a trailer or possibly a truck with two trailers in some instances.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the maxium load that you usually discover is being carried over the highway?

Mr. JAMES. The absolute maximum I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you observed?

Mr. JAMES. Oh, we have observed loads as high as 15 or 20 tons, but they are most unusual, and I think the absolute maximum load is not significant at all. It is so much at variance with either the average load or what you might call customary loads.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think that your average is very significant either, because there are so many light vehicles that bring the average down.

Mr. JAMES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is important to know the maximum loads.

Mr. JAMES. The unusual maximum load is very high, and it is to control that maximum load that Mr. MacDonald is advocating, as perhaps an advantageous feature of any Federal legislation, control of sizes and weights and the dimensions of trucks in interstate traffic. The CHAIRMAN. Could you say whether there were as many 5-ton trucks?

Mr. JAMES. Oh, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there as many 8 and 9 or 10 ton trucks?

Mr. JAMES. No, no. Very few over 72 tons. The number of trucks over 71/2 tons would not run over 1 or 2 per cent. It varies in different States. As low as 1.2 per cent in some States, and perhaps 212 per cent in a few other States.

The CHAIRMAN. So you say that there are quite a number of 5-ton and 72-ton trucks now being used on the highways?

Mr. JAMES. Yes; a small percentage