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which, as I understand, would be the same as the trust rates by trust agreement.

Mr. HUMPHREY. Did they make that statement with regard to ships that go through the canal in the coastwise trade?

Senator SIMMONS. I understood it to apply to all ships, and especially ships engaged in the coastwise trade.

Mr. HUMPHREY. I may say generally that I do not agree with either Johnson or Huebner about this proposition.

Senator WALSH. I got the impression from one witness who appeared before us the other day that the tramp ship was a nonexisting thing; that it was extinct and belonged to the past age, and another witness came along and left upon me the impression that about 85 per cent of the sea traffic of the world was carried in the tramp ships. Have you any statistics in relation to the amount of traffic coming into and out of the port of Seattle in the line steamers and in the tramp ships?

Mr. HUMPHREY. I think that can be obtained; but if you will permit me I will make a statement there that I think I know what led to that error. That statement, although apparently contradictory, is not in reality. For instance, take the trade between here and Europe to illustrate. On account of the value of the passenger traffic the regular lines can and do carry freight so cheaply that the tramp has practically disappeared. Now that is true in all trades. Take it on the Pacific coast. I suppose that tramps still do a good deal of business, and I imagine that is the way that statement has grown up. One of your witnesses was familiar with one trade and another with another.

Senator WALSH. There was a gentleman here from New York yesterday, who was himself an exporter who made that statement.

Mr. HUMPHREY. If he was speaking about trade from here to Europe he probably told you that the tramp had disappeared.

Senator WALSH. No; on the contrary, he said it carried about 85 per cent of the freight. For instance, he said that practically all grains and flour, and that kind of thing, was transported in tramp ships.

Senator BRISTOW. And cattle-he did not mention cattle, but I know cattle are.

Representative HUMPHREY. My recollection is that the evidence before our committee was to the contrary.

Senator WALSH. You ought to know enough without reference to statistics. What is your own impression concerning the port of Seattle? Do tramp ships come in there and take cargoes out?

Mr. HUMPHREY. Yes, sir; a good deal of that is done, but I did not think it was anywhere near such a percentage as that.

Senator WALSH. Which would you think carried the greater amount?

Mr. HUMPHREY. I think the regular steamship lines carried far the greater amount.

Senator WALSH. In the investigation which your committee conducted, did you find any evidence of combination between tramp ships, or do they compete with each other?

Mr. HUMPHREY. As a rule, there is no combination between tramp ships, but that is not always true. You take what is known as the International Sailing Ships' Union, that consists of sail ships that

visit the Pacific coast and carry grain from that country to Europe. That was one of the earliest combines that was made. They have there such combination, just the same as the regular lines, and after they formed that combination--which was formed about eight or nine years ago, or maybe 10 years-immediately after they formed that combination they increased the freight rates from Seattle to Liverpool over 40 per cent.

Senator WALSH. That is, sailing ships?

Mr. HUMPHREY. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. The same witness told us there was no line of business in which competiton was so fierce as in the carrying trade. Is that in accordance with the impression you got from your investigations?

Mr. HUMPHREY. That may be true with tramp vessels in certain places but not as to regular lines.

Mr. WALSH. Of course it is not true as to regular lines.

Mr. HUMPHREY. Do you recall the gentleman who made that statement?

Senator WALSH. It was Mr. Outerbridge.

Senator BRISTOW. He is an exporter and importer of grains and farm products, etc., in New York.

Senator WALSH. He told us cargoes were perhaps more earnestly sought after by rivals for the trade than any other line of business, even insurance.

Mr. HUMPHREY. I have not a distinct memory about the tramps, but I know in regard to the regular lines that this developed on the hearings that before they could fix a rate from here to South America, or from here to Europe, in many of the trades, they had to cable to Europe to get instructions as to what they should charge.

Senator WALSH. Are you speaking of line steamers?

Mr. HUMPHREY. Yes, sir; I do not know anything about the tramps.

Senator THORNTON. In reference to that, Mr. Humphrey, I remember the witness alluded to by Senator Walsh said only a small proportion now was carried by tramp steamers, and he said that as a rule the tramp steamer was loaded by people who themselves owned the cargo-not exactly one man, but they get together and they charter that tramp steamer and send it off for wherever they want to. He said that was the way the tramp steamer business was operated. Mr. HUMPHREY. I am very much surprised if a tramp steamer cuts very much figure in the North Atlantic."

Senator THORNTON. Well, your opinion there agrees with the opinion of one of the witnesses.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Humphrey, before you leave the stand, in view of your theory that the imposition of the tolls will be paid by the ultimate consumer and that the owner of the ship does not care anything about it. Mr. Outerbridge testified yesterday as to the question of the economic advantage of remitting these tolls to the coastwise shippers, and in the course of his testimony he said:

The shipowners, if it is a new line of business, naturally analyze the trade and determine what class of vessel is best likely to be suitable for her size, draft, and tonnage for the ports she is going to enter, and for the cargo she is expected to carry, 43756-14-27

and the vessel is designed accordingly. But after that freight rates are established on what will get the business, and if they can make money out of it, well and good. If they can not they have got to go out of it and go somewhere else with their ships. What the traffic will bear is what establishes the freight rates. I am absolutely convinced, and I have been a shipping merchant, exporter, and importer for 35 years in New York and the foreign trade, that this proposed exemption will never be expressed in the rates, and will never even be figured on by the steamship lines doing a coastwise trade, except as it may figure in their profit and loss account at the end of the year. But it will never even be figured in basin the rates on hich they carry lumber, coal, and various other things.

You disagree with that theory of Mr. Outerbridge, do you?

Mr. HUMPHREY. Absolutely. It does not appeal to my judgment. Senator BRANDEGEE. Have you ever been in the shipping business yourself?

Mr. HUMPHREY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The clerk of the committee will read some correspondence from the Office of the Secretary of State.

(The clerk proceeded to read the correspondence referred to.) The CHAIRMAN. Does that purport to be all the message? The CLERK. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is it?

Senator SIMMONS. I will state to the committee that this memoranda was obtained by my clerk. I had to draw it up for him. I do not vouch for its entire correctness.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the department know it was going to be submitted?

Senator SIMMONS. Yes; I conferred with Mr. Bryan, and he gave me authority to present that correspondence. If the committee wants the book, it can have the book.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee, as a matter of fact, asked for the book a week ago, and the request has not been complied with. Senator Borah asked for this correspondence a week ago from Secretary Bryan, and the request has not been complied with.

Senator SIMMONS. He has not sent it to the Senate as yet.

The CHAIRMAN. He has not sent it to the Senate, and the committee would be glad to have it. I notice some of this correspondence is not complete.

Senator SIMMONS. As I stated, that was drawn up by my clerk. I have not verified it myself.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Who indicated what parts should be copied ? Senator SIMMONS. I just asked my clerk to draw up from that book all that related to the treaty, or correspondence with reference to the treaty, with Colombia. If there is any question about it, I will let the clerk have the book and he can verify it.

Senator BRANDEGEE. We will undoubtedly have the whole matter later.

Senator SIMMONS. Yes; I simply asked Mr. Bryan this morning if there was any objection to my submitting to the committee that correspondence relating to the treaty with Colombia, and he said the department had no objection to my doing so. if the committee objects to it, I shall not press it.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not suppose anybody objects, only because the correspondence is not complete. Mutilated would not be the word, but there are omissions in it, and as soon as we get the correspondence from the Secretary of State of course I suppose, if it is the desire of Senator Borah, it will go into the record.

f Senator SIMMONS. If the Senator makes that point and as I say I did not typewrite it or draw it up -I will withdraw that.

The CHAIRMAN. No; you need not do that. I simply note in this last letter from Mr. Bryce to Mr. Root that there are several asterisks indicating that a large part of the original is not here and if the correspondence will throw any light upon the controversy every Senator will recognize the wisdom of having all the correspondence and not an edited part of it.

Senator SIMMONS. Does the Senator suggest that I have the clerk copy from the book?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I do not make that request. My individual expectation is that the Secretary of State will comply with the request of the committee and send the correspondence here.

Meanwhile Senator Brandegee made a motion a few days ago, which I think was adopted unanimously, or offered a resolution calling upon the Secretary of State to furnish the complete correspondence, including copies of all dispatches affecting in anywise the Hay-Pauncefote treaty. As you know, we have the correspondence up to and including the time of the negotiations and the adoption of that treaty. There was subsequent, correspondence, notably in 1909, when Mr. Root presented certain requests to the British Government, Mr. Root at that time being Secretary of State.

Senator SIMMONS. This is not correspondence with reference to the Hay-Pauncefote treaty. This is correspondence with reference to the treaty with Colombia by Mr. Root during Mr. Roosevelt's administration.

The CHAIRMAN. It relates to the Hay-Pauncefote treaty, because Mr. Root communicated with the British Government on behalf of this Government and entered into a new treaty with Colombia by which Colombia was to be permitted to use the canal free of tolls for her ships of war, and he sought the advice of the British Government, or at least wished to advise them, that this Government believed it should do that, notwithstanding the provisions of the Hay-Pauncefote treaty.

Senator SIMMONS. Mr. Chairman, let me say that if Senator Brandegee, who introduced that resolution, desires the matter held in abeyance, I shall make no sort of objection to it, if it is preferred to have the full text of the correspondence. If there is anything omitted there, I take it, it was omitted because it was thought it did not relate to this matter, and I will send and get the book and read from the book.

Senator BRISTOw. Why not let the Secretary of State comply with the request of the committee and furnish it with the correspondence complete?

Senator SIMMONS. If the clerk had been permitted to read, the fact would have been disclosed that Mr. Root finally wrote a very lengthy letter to our ambassador, Mr. Reid, which disclosed the reasons which actuated him in making this treaty with Colombia, and I had supposed that it was desired right now to know what the reasons of Mr. Root were, as it is claimed that Mr. Bryan has negotiated a similar treaty, probably based upon similar reasons.

Senator BRISTOw. But upon the suggestion of Senator Borah the first or second day we met, the Secretary of State was invited to furnish the committee with copies of correspondence. and this appears to

be a part of the corespondence referred to, while, as I understand the chairman of the committee, the request made by the committee has has not as yet been complied with.

Senator BRANDEGEE. That is true, Senator Bristow, but is not this the situation, that that suggestion, at the suggestion of Senator Borah, conveyed to the department by the chairman, of course is going to be complied with? I assume that it takes a long time to make these copies, but they will come to this committee, as I understand it.. Now, then, pending that, Senator Simmons seems to have had his secretary go to the book and copy off such portions as in the judgment of his secretary related to this Colombian treaty. It does not purport to be the whole thing, and Senator Simmons does not vouch for it as such.

Senator SIMMONS. Undoubtedly Mr. Root's letter is given in full, giving his reasons for the treaty. The other is correspondence just leading up to it.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Inasmuch as this matter has come up, I desire to say that I went to the State Department this noon and had a talk with Assistant Secretary of State Adee, to whom I found the matter of complying with the Senate resolution requesting all the correspondence in relation to these treaties, had been assigned by the department. They are busily engaged upon it, I am informed, and it is possible, and he suggested it might be that he would advise the Senate, partially at least, on the matter so far as reporting progress, and had no doubt that some time during the week everything in the department relating to any of these treaties in any whatever would be furnished, including memoranda that had been exchanged and the correspondence which at the time had been marked personal and private and was never originally intended for publication, but in view of the fact that the matter is an old one and the parties, many of them, are now deceased, they saw no reason for preserving the privacy of it any longer. All that would be sent over, as I am advised, but will go to the Senate, and not this committee, but I know we can put it in the record.

Senator SIMMONS. The only part that I care about is Mr. Root's final letter, but I am perfectly willing to let the matter go over until Monday.

Senator BRISTOW. In addition to Mr. Root's final letter, I think we are entitled as much to the exchanges between Secretary Root and the British Government and the Colombian and the Panaman Governments, as we are to his conclusions in regard to the matter.

Senator SIMMONS. You will observe from that correspondence that after the British Government was advised of the treaty, and this exemption in favor of Colombia, that they indicated they would protest against that as violating the terms of the Hay-Pauncefote treaty.

Senator BORAH. Because it was a foreign nation.

Senator SIMMONS. Because England was a foreign nation?
Senator BORAH. No; that Colombia was.

Senator SIMMONS. Yes; Colombia was. Mr. Root then set forth in great fullness and detail his reasons for believing that it was no violation of the treaty.

Senator WALSH. The whole correspondence will be here later, and if there is any omission, it will be detected.

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