Senator WALSH. Mr. Randall, I wish you would tell us whther any lumber does actually come by rail from the Pacific coast to Boston?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes; a very little.

Senator WALSH. What is the character of lumber? Is that the low grade or the high grade lumber?

Mr. RANDALL. Well, the lumber that I know about has been used for the construction of mills. We had a cargo of 600,000 feet here within a few months that came into Massachusetts for flooring of mills.

Senator WALSH. That is an inconsequential amount, of course?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, very; but you can not afford to bring it on account of the price.

Senator WALSH. New England, I suppose, supplies itself with lumber from some other source than the Pacific coast? That is, commercially speaking?

Mr. RANDALL. It supplies itself with lumber from south Atlantic and the Gulf ports.

Senator WALSH. It comes from North Carolina, for instance?
Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. That market would be, in a way, as a matter of course, displaced if you brought the lumber around from the Pacific coast through the canal?

Mr. RANDALL. No; it would not be, for this reason: The supply of what we call yellow pine, commercially called hard pine, is getting so scarce that it is only a question of a number of years until there will not be any, and something must take its place; something must be developed to take its place. Oregon pine in many ways can do it. It is only going to fit in. In the course of a few years the development of this Pacific coast lumber business is going to provide the East with an opportunity of getting lumber for its building purposes which will fit into the place of hard and yellow pines as they gradually become eliminated because of the scarcity of lumber.

Senator WALSH. I am very glad to learn that.

Senator SIMMONS. I understood the Senator to ask you if you brought that lumber from Oregon, if you would displace the market for the lumber from the south Atlantic sections of the country?

Mr. RANDALL. Temporarily a little, but nothing to amount to anything. No; I do not think it will, because on account of the scarcity of the other qualities of lumber.

Senator SIMMONS. You do not think the Government would be justified in taking the $1.50 per thousand out of the Treasury and paying it over to you as a dealer, as a shipper of lumber

Senator WALSH. Senator, I had a line of inquiry to follow.

Senator SIMMONS. I beg your pardon. I thought you were through. Senator WALSH. How much lumber is brought around the Horn from the Pacific coast and sold in New England?

Mr. RANDALL. Very little.

Senator WALSH. Is it really a commercial proposition?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, it is; if the rate of freight is cheap enough. Senator WALSH. I am speaking about the actual conditions as they exist; as it is placed upon a commercial proposition.

Mr. RANDALL. Yes.

Senator WALSH. Could you give us any kind of an idea about how much lumber thus comes to New England annually?

Mr. RANDALL. No; I could not. But I can tell you this: One product of that Oregon field that has contributed to New England is what we call spars. Every one of these tall flagstaffs you see out there is probably an Oregon spar. That all comes from that coast.

Senator WALSH. Of course, that would be inconsequential in amount. It is only a special kind of product; a special kind of timber?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes; that is special; but the demand has been such that the price did not enter into it, from the fact that we had to have it. Senator WALSH. Yes; exactly. Let us talk now about the ordinary grades of lumber, the common grades of lumber. Have those grades come around the Horn fron the Pacific coast?

Mr. RANDALL. In some small quantities.

Senator WALSH. Speaking about that particular grade as a basis for an estimate, did it come in sailing ships or steamships?

Mr. RANDALL. Both.

Senator WALSH. Could you give us an idea about what the rate around the Horn is on lumber of that character?

Mr. RANDALL. Oh, in the neighborhood of $19 to $22 a thousand feet.

Senator WALSH. What does that common lumber sell for in the markets of Massachusetts?

Mr. RANDALL. Now you are asking me a question which I have got to go into a long explanation to tell you, but I am willing to do it if you wish me to. The value of lumber for commercial purposes in building is in ratio to the size of the lumber. If you take a stick of lumber 60, 70, or 80 feet long, running from 12 to 30 inches square, you are getting a stick of lumber which is of great value. That is the kind of lumber that we can get in Oregon, and the supply is getting very short in the South. On the smaller classes of lumber, such as lumber that we lay for boards in our houses, I very much doubt if the Oregon lumber at the present time would compete at all, because that lumber sells very cheap; it sells anywhere, I imagine, from $18 to $25 per thousand wholesale. But the big stuff is practically impossible now to get in our southern waters, because the supply is largely exhausted, but the Pacific coast forests are full of that big stuff, of those big trees, and they can get out very big lumber, and that is what we need here.

Now, the discrimination, or rather the reduction of the freight rate of $10 or $12 per thousand feet from the present rate, is going to make it possible to bring that lumber in here and supply a demand here which is not going to interfere very seriously with the southern lumber, but which in time will take its place because of the scarcity of the other, and the rate of freight will make it possible

Senator WALSH. According to the figures in relation to which you were interrogated by Senator Simmens, it would appear that the English ship, carrying lumber from British Columbia ports to Boston, would have an advantage over your ships carrying lumber from Portland to Boston of about $3 per thousand?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. Do you think that is a fair statement of the conditions of competition against which you would contend?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes; that would be the equivalent of the tolls. Senator WALSH. No; but it is a good deal more than the equivalent of the tolls. Senator Simmons has figured in the tolls, and figuring the tolls against you and the tolls against the British ships, it would have an advantage over you of about $3 per thousand, according to the figures that you assented to?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. That is to say, in view of the cost of your vessel, the amount of money invested in it, as compared with the cost of the British vessel and the cost of operating your vessel as compared with the cost of operating the English vessel, you would be obliged to charge about $3 per thousand more than they in order that you would each make the same amount of money on your investment? Mr. RANDALL. That I have not figured out. The $3 applies to the difference in the tolls.

Senator WALSH. Oh, no.

Mr. RANDALL. It did not apply to the difference in the operation and cost. I have not figured that out. You can figure it out. I will get you the figures.

Senator WALSH. You gave the Senator figures of $11.50?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes.

Senator WALSH. And $13 a thousand, if you were obliged to pay tolls, as the rates upon which you would carry lumber?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes.

Senator WALSH. As against $7.50 to $8.50?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. Making a difference of perhaps $4 a thousand? Mr. RANDALL. Yes; that is right.

Senator WALSH. You would think that would be the difference in your rates?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes; but I do not think you are very far out of the

way.

Senator WALSH. You see, the tolls are included now; and even if you remitted the tolls, which would only be $1.50 per thousand-even if you remitted the tolls-they would still have an advantage over you of $3 a thousand. In that situation of affairs, apparently, Mr. Randall, your market in New England would be monopolized by the British Columbia merchants, the lumber manufacturers, to the exclusion of the Portland manufacturers. Is that not the case?

Mr. RANDALL. No; I do not think so. You must remember I am operating both ways. You must compete on the basis of both ways. My boats going west as well as east, I can afford by taking my whole trip-figuring out what I can make out of the whole round trip on this line-I can afford to bring lumber just as I told you.

Senator WALSH. Of course, the British Columbia ship is in the same situation?

Mr. RANDALL. No; it is not.

Senator WALSH. Why not?

Mr. RANDALL. Because probably that ship will be a tramp boat which comes from some other place. He has no line. That boat is picked up anywhere.

Senator WALSH. There is no reason why a line should not be started?

Mr. RANDALL. You could not establish a foreign line running in our coastwise trade, because there would be no business outward.

Senator WALSH. He is running from Victoria?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes.

Senator WALSH. Or some other port to Boston?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. And he is paying tolls?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. Carrying lumber one way and carrying general produce the other way?

Mr. RANDALL. That other part of his voyage would go into a foreign field.

Senator WALSH. He would get a cargo out of Boston to Victoria, the same as you would, would he not?

Mr. RANDALL. No; I do not think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Would Victoria offer a suitable market for the products?

Mr. RANDALL. If there happened to be any cargoes for him. I do not happen to know of any cargoes from Boston to Victoria. He would probably go to Australia and then come across and come back to Boston and make the trip that way.

Senator THORNTON. You said that one reason you wished free tolls was that it would enable you to bring lumber cheaply from Oregon to Boston. It occurred to me at the time why it was you wished to go all the way to Oregon to bring lumber to Boston when there was so much good lumber on the Atlantic side, instead of coming all the way from the Pacific. Will you answer why that is? Why would you find it necessary to bring lumber from Oregon when there is so much on the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts?

Mr. RANDALL. It is a different quality of lumber; a different kind of lumber entirely. It is a lumber that can be used in places to-day where there is almost none of this Georgia pine lumber to supply the need. It is going to replenish the market with a quality of lumber it wants.

Senator THORNTON. That view occurred to me, but two days ago a New Orleans lumberman testified that he wished free tolls because it would enable him to ship lumber to the Pacific coast. Mr. RANDALL. That is perfectly true. There are different kinds of lumber, you know. That yellow pine lumber, brought from the Gulf, is a different quality of lumber than the Oregon fir that is brought from the Pacific Coast. They are different kinds of lumber, of different fiber.

Senator THORNTON. Could you ship different kinds from New Orleans or any Gulf or Atlantic coast ports to the Pacific coast in competition with the Pacific coast lumber?

Mr. RANDALL. It would not be in competition. It would be supplying a different quality of lumber for use in which that quality alone would fill the bill, whereas this Oregon pine in large sizes can can come around here and fill a use that the yellow pine will not fill. They are different qualities of lumber.

To-day the greatest product that is brought from the Pacific coast in the lumber line is shingles. Shingles come here in great quantities, and the trade is increasing all the time. We can bring these shingles from Portland, Oreg., in our steamers at a greatly reduced freight

and build up the use and encourage business and give New England what they want. At the same time we can take manufactured goods from all around New York to the Pacific ports and give here an outlet for excess business of their own, which this cheaper rate of freight will give her an advantage of competition in those markets, and undoubtedly it will be taken advantage of by all New England manufacturers extensively.

Senator THORNTON. I see your reason now for wishing to bring lumber from the Pacific coast to the Atlantic coast, but what accounts for the New Orleans man wanting to ship to the Pacific coast? What kind of lumber can he send to the Pacific coast that could not be supplied there cheaper than what he can send?

Mr. RANDALL. He could send oak, for one thing, and quite a lot of it is shipped out of New Orleans now-of which I imagine they have none at all on the Pacific coast-and that oak lumber is a lumber that is used for certain things for which other kinds of lumber would not serve the purpose at all in any way, shape, or manner, because oak is a very hard lumber. Then, he can send a quality of cypress out from the Gulf, which is used very extensively, which I imagine they have not got at all on the Pacific coast; and that cypress is a very beautiful lumber. It is used for various building purposes and is a very valuable lumber, and it could be shipped very readily out, going through the canal, and probably compete somewhat in the California market. There is going to be an exchange of these products taking place all the time.

Senator THORNTON. None of us asked him any questions, and I should not have asked you if you had not stated that you wanted to bring lumber from the Pacific coast, and he said he wanted to carry lumber from the Gulf coast to the Pacific coast. I wanted to get your idea about that.

Mr. RANDALL. I hope I have made myself clear about that.

The CHAIRMAN. You have stated that if tolls are imposed upon coastwise shipping each of your boats would pay about $12,000 for the round trip between Boston and San Francisco or Seattle? Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You, as a shipowner, would pay that?
Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who would eventually bear that burden?

Mr. RANDALL. The products. It would go back, very largely, to

the merchandise.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be at the expense of the producer of the merchandise or the consumer, or both?

Mr. RANDALL. I should say both.

The CHAIRMAN. Both?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes; I think there would be a discriminating difference in price all along the line, where everbody would pay a little of it. Senator SIMMONS. Would you take any of it for yourself? Mr. RANDALL. I should if I could.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the practice now established among shipowners, in quoting rates through the canal, to quote a specific rate plus the canal dues, if exacted?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes, sir. I have not done it, because we have not. got our schedules, but it has been done by the steamer lines that are now operating.