Senator SIMMONS. If the lumber was put in in the most economical way so far as space is concerned, I want you, if you can, or Mr. Ransom, if he can, tell the committee how many feet of lumber you can put in a space of 100 cubic feet.

Senator WALSH. It seems to me, Senator, that the answer that the witness has given is 125,000 feet.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen of the committee, I regret to say that I am compelled to leave here on account of a previous engagement made more than 10 days ago. I can not come back this afternoon, and I will ask Senator Bristow to act as temporary chairman of the committee during the balance of the session this afternoon. Senator WALSH. Let us proceed.

(Senator Bristow at this point took the chair.)

Mr. SKINNER. Twelve hundred feet is what these gentlemen figure. We never figured on that.

Senator SIMMONS. I asked you the question if the lumber is put in in the most economical way so far as to space, and I understood you to say you were preparing, and this gentlemen who testified here the other day said he was preparing, some vessels for the lumber trade. I assume if you prepare a vessel for the lumber trade, you will prepare it so as to utilize the space to the best advantage. Now, utilizing the space to the best advantage, I want to know how many feet of lumber you can compress into 100 cubic feet. I understood you to say just now 1,250 feet.

Mr. SKINNER. Figure it out mathematically, if you want to, but I tell you when you establish the register under the English register of the vessel it is established

Senator SIMMONS. What is the use of talking about an English net register when we have an absolute standard fixed by President Taft, and that is 100 cubic feet.

Mr. SKINNER. My experience was we carried about 1,250 feet, but Mr. Teal says if you actually figure it out it is 1,200 feet.

Mr. TEAL. It can not be anything but 1,200 feet.

Mr. SKINNER. We do not deal in those figures when we are dealing in freight rates.

Senator BRISTOW. We will let Mr. Ransom read into the record some figures.

I

Mr. RANSOM. I did not want Senator Simmons to think for a moment that I was questioning the integrity of Mr. Brookings. tried to bring that out in my last statement.

Senator WALSH. I think that is quite clear, that no one did. Mr. RANSOM. I speak now of a vessel, the General Hobart; her net tonnage is 1,396. Her hold capacity is 900,000 feet. On that basis the tolls would be $1.88 per thousand feet on that vessel.

Senator WALSH. Of lumber?

Mr. RANSOM. Of lumber. If that vessel was loaded with rough green lumber it would cost 5.7 cents per hundred pounds; if on dimension lumber, that is on sized dimension lumber, it would be 7.23 cents per hundred pounds. On flooring it would be 9.4 cents per hundred pounds; that is, a vessel being used constantly at the present time."

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dunn, you had some additional statement you desired to make, I believe.

ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MR. RUSSELL L. DUNN, SAN FRANCISCO, CAL.

[Continued from page 361.]

Mr. Chairman, on Saturday last I finished my discussion at that time relating to the probable exports of sodium carbonates. I begin to-day with potassium salt exports by the canal.

POTASSIUM SALT EXPORTS BY CANAL.

The annual consumption of potassium salts in the United States approximates 800,000 tons, all imported from Germany, which has the only exploited deposits of the natural salts. These salts have been discovered in certain lake brines in California associated with soda and borax. Searles Lake deposits alone are estimated to contain 24,000,000 tons of potassium salt, but the annual output is limited by the absorbing power of the world's markets for borax and natural sodas, both products of the same brine. Under these conditions, I estimate that 60,000 short tons of potassium salt will be exported from California through the Panama Canal wholly in coastwise interstate commerce. It will produce an addition of new income to California amounting to about $700,000 annually. If a Panama Canal toll be imposed the commerce in this article will not be affected. The California producer will pay the toll. The vessel carriage of the potassium salt will be a diversion of traffic from foreign trans-Atlantic ships to coastwise American ships.

MAGNESITE EXPORTS BY CANAL.

The annual consumption of magnesite carbonate of magnesiumin the States east of the Rocky Mountains approximates 200,000 tons annually, valued at the customhouses-it is all imported-at $2,000,000. Austria and Greece are the principal sources of the imports, and of about 100,000 tons annually consumed in Great Britain, France, Germany, and other Atlantic countries of Europe. The known deposits of a single county in California-San Benito County can supply the world's consumption indefinitely, with the cheap transportation facility of the Panama Canal displacing the foreign production not only from our Atlantic States markets, but from the great foreign countries' markets as well. The addition to the income of California from exports of this article will be about $2,000,000 annually. If a Panama Canal toll be imposed, the commerce in this article through the canal will not be affected. The consumer will pay the toll in the price. The vessel carriage of magnesite will be as to 200,000 tons annually a diversion of traffic from foreign trans-Atlantic ships to coastwise American ships, and as to 100,000 tons a diversion of traffic wholly between ports of foreign countries to foreign commerce of our States' ports.

TALC EXPORTS BY CANAL.

The annual consumption of soapstone and talc in the States east of the Rocky Mountains is about 150,000 tons, 10,000 tons of it imported. The average price at the point of production and port of entry is about $10 per ton, and, according to the grade and character of preparation, it is marketed at prices ranging from $15 to $40 a ton. California possesses enormous deposits of the highest grade, from which the mineral can be laid down through the Panama Canal in Atlantic States ports at a price much less than that of the inferior grades now marketed. The consumption will expand, too, through the supply of high grade at lower prices, displacing substitutes for it now employed largely. I estimate that 200,000 tons annually will be exported through the canal from California, all of it new sea traffic, about 150,000 tons coastwise in American vessels to our Atlantic ports and 50,000 tons in foreign vessels to foreign ports. California will gain about $1,250,000 of annual income from this export commerce.

Senator SIMMONS. You say you estimated that? What is the basis of that?

Mr. DUNN. The basis is what it will produce to the exporter at the port of departure of shipment from California. I will say that I am familiar with the prices in the markets of the world and know the comparative quantities consumed, and these estimates are as close to the fact as could be given, and not far from the fact.

If a Panama Canal toll be imposed it will not affect the transportation of this article through the canal. The toll will be paid by the

consumers.

BARYTA EXPORTS BY CANAL.

The annual consumption of baryta, carbonate of barium, in the States east of the Rocky Mountains is about 75,000 tons, of which something over 25,000 tons is imported from Germany. California has enormous cheaply mineable deposits, but the market value is low, in Atlantic States ports from $5 to $8 per ton, and 50,000 tons annually, which would move through the Canal coastwise if there be no toll, will remain unmined in the California deposits if toll be imposed. The California producer would have to pay the toll and the profit margin in the business would not be sufficient to absorb it.

Senator WALSH. In your estimates here do you take the quantities of the various commodities now consumed which will be displaced by the California products?

Mr. DUNN. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. Do you make any allowance for an increased use of them consequent on the reduction of the price?

Mr. DUNN. Only where I specifically say so, as I have in the case of one or two.

Senator SIMMONS. Mr. Dunn, I notice you express a very confident opinion that if the tolls are imposed the consumers will have to pay the tolls. Suppose the tolls are not imposed are you equally as confident that the transportation companies will not pocket it?

Mr. DUNN. The answer to that is that the supply is so large that competition between the supply will give the consumer the benefit of the toll. It will not be absorbed either by the producer or the transportation company.

Senator SIMMONS. Is that your experience with reference to transportation where the supply is very large?.

Mr. SKINNER. It would be the case in these particular instances which I have given, because the ownership of these deposits is not centered-there are a great many of the deposits and all of them very favorably situated. So that, as I say, competition is found to bring the price down in the event that there is no toll to the average profit which is derived from the sale of most articles.

Senator WALSH. Are your deposits held in private ownership or on public lands?

Mr. DUNN. Most of them on public lands; few of them on private lands. There are a great many of them held on locations.

Senator SIMMONS. We ave a great many natural resources in the country, found scattered in different parts of the country, some of them under private ownership. Is it because of that competitive condition, do you mean to say, that the transportation companies do not take advantage of all they can get?

Mr. DUNN. I am speaking now only of these that I have been discussing. The reason for my conclusions is this, that these deposits are absorbed in very small quantity by the local markets of the West. They are not at all transported East nor exported to foreign countries. The cost of the present transportation to foreign markets, which are practically all in Europe, being too great, the facility of the canal reducing the cost of transportation makes it possible to market them and to create local facilities which permit of mining them on a cheaper scale.

Senator SIMMONS. Do you think our experience shows that the decrease in the cost of transportation by rail in this country has resulted in the consumer getting the full benefit of that, or has it resulted in increasing the profits of the transportation companies?

Mr. DUNN. In some instances the consumer gets the benefit and in other instances the producer. It depends entirely on the supply. Senator SIMMONS. Do you not think the transportation company gets the benefit sometimes, and most often, of the reduction in the cost of transportation?

Mr. DUNN. I do not think so. No; for the reason that transportation is an expense, and the tendency is to keep expenses at the minimum. Both the producer and the consumer are constantly fighting to that end-the producer that he may make more money and the consumer that he may get the article for less.

Senator SIMMONS. Have not the transportation companies in this country generally charged about all they could get, without any reference to the cost of transportation? I think that has been the gravamen of some of our quarrels with them.

Mr. DUNN. I do not question but that has been the fact in some cases, but it is not invariably so.

ASPHALTUM EXPORTS BY CANAL.

California produces a third of the world's annual consumption of asphaltum. It can produce all of it from its vast deposits of asphaltumbase oil. Whether or not it would be exported through the canal, either coastwise or foreign, seems wholly dependent on whether a toll be imposed or not imposed. If a toll be imposed it would be paid by the California producer of the asphaltum, as he would have to sell in competition with the equally cheap produced foreign asphaltum of Trinidad. The consumer might obtain Trinidad asphaltum cheaper by reason of the preference given it over the California product by the amount of the canal-toll charge, about $1 per ton, but the California product would be shut out of the markets of Atlantic ports of our States. With the canal toll free, I believe 100,000 tons of asphaltum would be exported annually from California through it coastwise to our Atlantic States ports, which would effect a displacement of that quantity of foreign asphalt from our consumption and would effect a diversion of our sea traffic to that extent of tonnage from foreign ships to American ships.

GYPSUM, MARBLE, AND SALT IMPORTS BY CANAL.

In addition to those minerals discussed in detail there are gypsum and marble, both consumed in enormous quantities in the arts and crafts of the States east of the Rocky Mountains, both widely distributed in deposits in these States and both moved into consumption on very small margins of profit. California and Nevada contain very large deposits of gypsum and many of the islands of southeastern Alaska are composed of marble equalling in quality that found elsewhere in the world. More or less of these articles will be exported through the canal coastwise if it be toll free, but none at all will be exported if a canal toll be imposed.

The same conclusion can be expressed with relation to exports of salt. It exists in inconceivable quantities on the surface of the ground in the beds of former inland lakes. Utah, Nevada, Oregon, Arizona, and California all contain such salt beds, besides other salt beds in earth-covered deposits and salt lakes. Death Valley in California contains a salt bed 40 miles long and 5 miles wide. Šalt from these deposits will from time to time be exported through the canal if it be toll free. It will move on a profit margin of less than a dollar a ton. But any toll imposed would be paid by the producer of the salt, and the toll charge being practically 60 cents à ton the profit margin would be absorbed by it.

METALS AND METAL-ORE EXPORTS BY CANAL.

The next item from my table is, "Metal ores and metals, 500,000 short tons." This would all be new commerce created by the opportunity of the canal.

The annual consumption of chrome-iron ore in the States east of the Rocky Mountains is about 50,000 tons, all of it a foreign import. The consumption of the Atlantic countries of Europe, England, Germany, France, and Belgium principally, is about 90,000 tons. The