miles, roughly speaking, is equal to 1 rail mile. That is on short distances, say, up to 600 or 700 and possibly 900 miles. That is the way divisions are made. When you have longer distances the difference between the rail mile and the water mile-I mean in cost of operation, which is the only way you can measure it-is very much wider. I think the divisions on the Atlantic on the longer hauls used to be 4 miles to 1, and possibly more. I know it was as high as 4 water miles for 1 rail mile. That is the way the rates are fixed in the South on the steamship lines that operate to southern points.

I do not know that you care to have anything on the operating cost of the steamers. I could give you the information very readily, if it would be of any service to you, I could leave you some tabulation of charter rates on lumber to various ports in the world, domestic and foreign.

or,

Senator OWEN. Let that go in.

(The table referred to is as follows:)

CHARTER RATES ON LUMBER.

Statement showing cargo rate in dollars per thousand feet; their equivalents in dollars and cents per ton of 2,000 pounds on lumber from Columbia River points. Quotations taken from weekly Freight Circular of the Shipowners' Association of the Pacific Coast.

Statement shows quotation beginning December 3, 1910, and date of changes up to March 9, 1912. For illustration: To San Francisco, rate is shown at $4 per 1,000 feet. This rate was in effect until December 17. The next change was made February 4, October 21, November 18, 1911, February 24, March 9, 1912, which rate was quoted that date.

Mr. TEAL. To give an idea of how those water rates vary on the tramps, in 1912 there was grain shipped to Japan on tramp steamers on the basis of $1.50 a ton. That was on English tramps that wanted to go over there and wanted to have something to get there with. Senator WALSH. What is the usual rate?

Mr. TEAL. I can give you that. Lumber by the thousand feet to Kobe, Shanghai, and Hongkong, distances varying from 4,700 to 6,100 miles, varies from $6 to $7 per thousand. To Manila, about 6,000 miles, it varies from $7 to $8 a thousand. To the south coast, Valparaiso, you have another situation; that is 5,700 miles; there it is about $10 per thousand. By steam or sail to Sydney and Melbourne, 7,100 and 7,700 miles, respectively, $7.50 a thousand. There are varying rates on the tramp vessels. You can not tell when they come seeking business anything about it.

Senator SIMMONS. I think Prof. Johnson expressed the opinion that more and more the traffic was in regular liners and less in tramps. Is that your view?

Mr. TEAL. Yes; where he was speaking of. On the Atlantic coast and also to the south-but on the Atlantic coast particularly most of the steamers are built for passengers. Some of the largest ones will only carry up to 3,000 tons of freight, and maybe not that much. They will fill up in crossing the Atlantic when they are running regularly at almost any price. I think they have practically run the tramp out of the Atlantic. That is not so with our shipments, and I think it will not be so for many years on grain, lumber, and things. of that sort.

Senator SIMMONS. Do you think the tramp in the coastwise trade on the Atlantic coast cuts much of a figure as compared with regular liners?

Mr. TEAL. Yes, on the character of commodities we are speaking of.

Senator SIMMONS. Heavy commodities?

Mr. TEAL. Yes. I tried a case the other day in which it was necessary for me to ascertain charters in your section. Your lumber movement is northbound. Consequently that is a heavy movement, and these schooners, both of them, wanted to get a southbound cargo. They offered to take from New York and other ports cement, I think it was, at a rate so that the schooner got but about 60 cents out of it after paying wharfage.

The CHAIRMAN. Sixty cents a ton?

Mr. TEAL. Yes. I think it was about $1 a ton, or a little more gross. These were telegraph offers for charters, anything to get the southbound tonnage.

Senator CRAWFORD. Did you mean northbound or southbound? Mr. TEAL. The Southern lumber moves north and our lumber moves south. I want to call attention to another matter that I think would be of importance both to the East and the West. That is in connection with the salmon pack.

Senator SIMMONS. Just a moment before you leave there. Do you hink the rates on the tramp steamers carrying lumber around from the coast through the canal would be as negligible as the one you have just spoken about? Do you think the rates on tramp steamers would be very much below the line rates coming from the West to the East?

Mr. TEAL. I do not think the regular liners, if they can avoid it, want to carry lumber.

Senator SIMMONS. You think it will all be carried in tramps? Mr. TEAL. Not all. They have not got the traffic now. They have got to build up their traffic, but it is my judgment that eventually the lumber movement, yours as well as ours, because you have a heavy westbound movement for South American, will move in specially constructed vessels for that trade the same as we move it to China and Japan.

Senator SIMMONS. They would be tramps?

Mr. TEAL. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAWFORD. If they do not carry lumber what will these regular liners carry-mostly fruit?

Mr. TEAL. No, not fruit. On the Pacific coast there are commodities of a great many different kinds. We have hops, fruit, barley, asphalt, salmon, and commodities of that kind. I will also say that I look to see a considerable movement of shingles by the regular liners. It is moving somewhat that way now. I also wish to say this, that on the eastbound movement as yet it is comparatively light, generally speaking, as compared with the other movement, except as the American-Hawaiian Line carries sugar from the islands is concerned, and that island sugar carriage is what built up the American-Hawaiian Steamship Co.

While I am on that I have some figures here that I think you will be interested in. I will not take up your time to read them. That is in regard to the North Pacific salmon pack of 1913. I will state that for 1913 the total pack was in excess of 8,000,000 cases, or slightly in excess of 193,000 tons. Of the total, in round numbers Alaska packed 3,700,000; Puget Sound, 2,500,000; the Columbia River, 266,000; and British Columbia, 1,300,000.

I have also given you here the North Pacific halibut catch, which is very much larger, I think, than you gentlemen would think. In 1913 there were caught by American vessels 42,000,000 pounds of halibut.

Senator WALSH. That goes East in refrigerator cars, I understand? Mr. TEAL. Yes, sir; it does.

Senator WALSH. That is, coast to coast traffic?

Mr. TEAL. I do not know how far east it does go. You are right, I think.

Senator WALSH. It may go to Boston?

Mr. TEAL. It may go clear East.

Senator CRAWFORD. Is the rate on that as low as 70 cents?

Mr. TEAL. No; I think not. I think I have the rate on that. It could not be that low, I think.

Senator SIMMONS. Canned salmon is 70 cents by rail?

Mr. TEAL. Yes; I will give you that in a moment. Then there is codfish and pickled salmon, and so forth. I want to call your attention to a particular phase to show you how our English and Canadian friends look after their trade. The Grand Trunk Pacific is completing its connection at Prince Rupert, which is, as you know, the Pacific coast terminal for that line. They are offering to absorb the local boat haul from any of the adjacent territory, which would be all the southeastern district of Alaska, and give the salmon product the

same transcontinental freight rates as is given by the United States lines.

Senator WALSH. That would be just simply saving the freight rate, whatever additional there is, from Prince Rupert down to Seattle? Mr. TEAL. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH. That would not be of any consequence?

Mr. TEAL. Yes; they evidently think it would be. I am only stating it for what it may be worth.

I will leave that with you as it may be of some service.
The statement referred to is as follows:

Totals, 8,063,447 cases, about 389,170,000 pounds, or 193,585 tons. Total value, $38,563,891.

1913...

North Pacific halibut catch.

55, 421, 805 pounds. | 1912..

53, 302, 103 pounds.

The selling price of halibut by fishers at place of landing varies from 2 cents to 9 cents, the average being about 5 cents a pound, making the 1913 catch worth at landing point about $2,771,000.

Halibut catch for 1913 divided as to nationality of vessels in North Pacific. American vessels.... 42, 636, 505 pounds. | Canadian vessels.... 12, 785, 300 pounds.

The immense quantities of halibut to be had in north Pacific waters were until recently available for only a limited population near the Pacific coast shore line. The large companies controlling this trade are now operating solid refrigerator halibut trains across the continent to Chicago, and even to the Atlantic seaboard, delivering the major portion of the entire catch to that territory. As exploration for the halibut banks is proceeding further out to sea and also out to the north, there is no reason why the annual catch of this fish should not increase for several years.

If this enormous supply of food fish could be handled through the Panama Canal in refrigerator service at a lower figure than is now possible, or if the effect of competition made the rate across the continent less than at present the benefit would be reaped by the consumers of the East. At the present time the wholesale price for halibut delivered to eastern centers runs 15 cents a pound or better, and the retail ranges as high as 25 cents. It would seem that canal traffic unimpeded by tolls should accomplish a reduction there.

There is a growing trade in fresh salmon, frozen salmon, mild-cured salmon, and pickled salmon. As the catch of salmon in extreme northern waters may be increased rapidly the possibility of placing on the Atlantic seaboard a large amount of this valuable food fish at a low figure is certainly greater with no tolls through the canal than with them. Siberia last year produced only about 130,000 cases of salmon, and it is conceded that all the streams of that region, as well as those of extreme northern Alaska, have wonderful possibilities in the production of this food fish. There is no greater fish preserve to be found in all the world than in these North Pacific waters. When they are properly explored and developed and proper consideration is given to the hatching of young fry, it would seem like the whole country would of necessity have a profound interest in being kept close to the fishing grounds with the lowest possible rate that may be had through the Panama Canal.

MISCELLANEOUS FISH PRODUCTS, ALASKA, 1913.

Codfish, 11,916,900 pounds. Value, about $500,000 at point of delivery. Pickled salmon, 7,666,400 pounds. Value, about $600,000. Herring, 10,413,926 pounds. Value, about $500,000 at point of delivery. Mild-cured salmon (all north Pacific waters), about 30,000 tierces. Each tierce net about 800 pounds or 24,000,000 pounds. Total value, approximately $2,400,000. Other miscellaneous fish products in Alaska, 1913, would aggregate more than 500,000 tons, the value of which in round numbers, would be These miscellaneous products consist of fish oil, whale oil, herring fertilizer, whale fertilizer, dry salt fish, etc.

This year the Grand Trunk Pacific is completing its connection to Prince Rupert, the Pacific coast terminal for the road. The first influence upon the United States transportation situation is felt already. Traffic officials of the new Canadian transcontinental line are offering to absorb the local boat haul from any of the adjacent Alaska territory which would mean all of the southeastern district, and give to the salmon product the same transcontinental freight rate that is given by the United States lines. Some of the salmon men believe that unless a materially lower rate is made as a result of the construction of the canal that the new Canadian line will be able to dominate that part of the southeastern pack which may move to Europe or any part of the United States beyond the Mississippi River. The southeastern pack runs about 2,000,000 cases a year.

Senator WALSH. Let us inquire now to see of what importance this is. Do you think that will move by the canal instead of by the transcontinental lines?

Mr. TEAL. I think a very large part of it will. That is a natural water traffic. Salmon comes very nearly measuring and weighing the same. I mean the canned salmon. It will measure a trifle more than it weighs, but it is very attractive freight both ways.

Senator WALSH. Is the water line fast enough for that? Of course, time is vital.

Mr. TEAL. Are you speaking of canned or fresh fish?

Senator WALSH. Fresh fish.

Mr. TEAL. I think the fresh fish will go very largely by rail.
Senator PAGE. In what condition are the halibut shipped?

Mr. TEAL. They go on refrigerator cars. Of course, the pickled salmon and herring and cured salmon can go just as well by water. In fact, it does go to Germany, and it can only go by water there, of

course.

Senator WALSH. Can you give us any kind of an idea about how much of this through coast-to-coast traffic will be diverted to the canal?

Mr. TEAL. Do you mean of the salmon?

Senator WALSH. No; of the coast-to-coast traffic of all kinds. Can you tell us in the first place about what it amounts to in tonnage? Mr. TEAL. I think I can. I can tell you one way what it amounts to. I can not tell you the other way. I can tell you what goes westbound exactly, if you desire to know it, right at this point I will give it to you.

Senator WALSH. If it is in the line of your discussion of this subject I will not ask for it now.

Mr. TEAL. It is quite immaterial. I can just as well give it to you now. The total westbound tonnage via all-water routes in 1913 was as follows:

By the water routes

Senator WALSH. I do not see that is of any consequence.

Mr. TEAL. I think that is what you asked.