do so. I just wanted to make that statement to show that we were very particular about those things.

Mr. CLARKE. There is just one other question that has been in my mind that I would like to have cleared up if I can. When this litigation was going on the Agricultural Department had the full jurisdiction or powers that it would naturally have?

Mr. JACOBSEN. That is the way we feel about it. that they had full authority.

Mr. CLARKE. That they have had full authority?

Mr. JACOBSEN. Full authority.

The CHAIRMAN. Were the scales ever tested by the Bureau of Standards?

Mr. JACOBSEN. I do not know.

Mr. WILKINSON. I just want to say this, further, that when the livestock weighing bill was passed in the legislature there were hearings, both sides appeared, and shippers testified as to the conditions in the weights that they had out there. Testimony of that kind was offered at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions. Mr. Wilkinson. we are very much obliged to you.

Mr. CLAGUE. Mr. Chairman, I would like you to now hear Mr. Lawrence.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. H. LAWRENCE, OF WACONIA, MINN.

Mr. LAWRENCE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen. I am president of the Northwestern Cooperative Livestock Shippers Association. At the present time there are 668 cooperative livestock shippers associations that are doing business in Minnesota and shipping principally to the South St. Paul stockyards.

I can say that almost every one of them are in favor of the State weighing of livestock when it goes to the market. We believe that the parties buying the stock should not be the parties to weigh the stock. Rightfully or not, we consider that the stockyards are in part owned by the packing interests, and we object to those interests weighing our livestock.

Now, if I may be permitted, I would like to read to you some resolutions that were passed at the annual meeting of this associntion held on February 14 of this year. Reading.]

Being informed through the daily press of the order of Judge Albert Johnson, of the district court, Dakota Counts, at Hastings, Minn., making permanent the restraining order which retaine the State the power to weigh livestock at the South St. Paul market: Be it

Resolved, That this association commends Henry C. Flannery and Mr. Carmen, of the attorney general's department, and the railroad and warehouse commission for their unfailing and successful efforts on behalf of the shippers of livestock and producers of Bostock, doing business on the South St. Paul markets; and be it further

Resolved, That should the litigation in connection with the weighing of livestock at South St. Proud be carried further in the courts, it is the wish of this association that the attorney general and the railroad and warehouse commission vigorously continue to carry the fight which has been so successfully inaugurated. It is further

Resolved, that the secretary he instructed to send a copy of this resolution to the attorney general and to the railroad and warehouse commission.

Whereas a bill has been prepared by a commitee representative of the livestock producers and introduced in Congress (H. R. 5093) by. Representative Frank Clague, having for its purpose the amending of the packers and stockyards act so as to recognize the practice of making patronage refunds to all producers marketing their stock through cooperative associations, both to members and nonmembers alike, as required by the cooperative law of Minnesota and the exemption clause of the Federal revenue act, and also to reestablish the weighing of livestock and the supervision of scales in the terminal livestock markets of Minnesota under the supervision of the railroad and warehouse commission: Therefore be it

Resolved, That the members of the Northwestern Cooperative Livestock Shippers' Association, assembled in annual meeting at St. Paul, Minn., on February 14, 1924, do hereby approve and indorse the proposed amendments above refered to and that they hereby petition their Representatives and Snators in Congress to actively support the passage of H. R. 5093 and its companion bill in the Senate as introduced by Senator Lenroot.

The secretary is instructed to send copies of this resolution to the Members of Congress from Minnesota and adjoining States and to Secretary Wallace, of the Department of Agriculture, and to President Coolidge.

At the present time there is pending before Congress H. R. 4823 and H. R. 4824, amendments to the packers and stockyards act, introduced by Hon. Frank Clague, which have for their purpose the return to the State of its right to regulate certain activities and functions engaged in by dealers and others in the South St. Paul stockyards: Be it therefore

Resolved, That this assembly, being deeply concerned with the changes in the packers and stockyards act proposed, hereby indorses and urge the passage most expeditiously of these amendments, and in order that our position may be unqualifiedly understood by the Members of Congress from this State, the secretary is hereby instructed to send a copy of this resolution to each Representative and Senator from Minnesoa and adjoining Sates, and also the Secretary of Agriculture, and also the President of the United States, as soon as the same can be prepared and mailed.

Whereas the Central Cooperative Commission Association has demonstrated by a large increase in its business during the year 1923 that it is performing a marketing service efficiently and economically for the livestock producers of the territory tributary to South St. Paul: Therefore be it

Resolved, That we indorse the policy of the Central Cooperative Commission Association and strongly urge upon the local livestock shipping associations that they take such action through their stockholders meetings or by the instructions of their boards of directors as will result in the shipping of their livestock to their own cooperative marketing agency.

A. P. BARTSCH.
N. E. CHRISTENSEN.
O. S. FINSETH.

There are more than a hundred thousand actual livestock producers belonging to the cooperative shippers associations in Minnesota that are vitally interested in the State retaining the weighing of their livestock.

I do not know that there is anything else with which I should occupy the committee's time.

Mr. DOYLE. You say there are 100,000 livestock shippers in cooperative organizations. Have you any idea what percentage they sell to the cooperative agencies, and what percentages they ship through the old-line exchange people?

Mr. LAWRENCE. I can not answer that question exactly, but the cooperative shippers association has handled, I think, approximately 30 per cent of all the livestock that came to the yards during 1923. Of course, some of it comes from associations that are not cooperative.

Mr. JACOBSEN. Would it be proper for you to state how long the cooperative organization has been in existence? That would probably be enlightening to these gentlemen.

Mr. LAWRENCE. You mean the central cooperative organization ? Mr. JACOBSEN. Yes.

Mr. LAWRENCE. A little less than three years. It began about two years ago last August. That is when they began to do business. Mr. PURNELL. Has the business increased each year since the organization?

Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes; very materially. Well, they began at that time and they are marketing approximately 30 per cent of the livestock that comes into the yards. They handled more than 1,000,000 head of hogs last year.

I thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. CLAGUE. I would now like to hear Mr. Peterson.

STATEMENT OF MR. S. E. PETERSON, OF WACONIA, MINN.

Mr. PETERSON. I am treasurer of the Northwestern Cooperative Livestock Shippers' Association. I was one of the incorporators of the organization in 1917. It then went by the name of the Central Cooperative Livestock Shippers' Association. At that time we did not have a single measure down in the South St. Paul yard for the protection of the shippers of livestock and that was the cause of the organization of this association. At that time we got busy with the legislature to see if we could not get some protective measures. We got behind measures looking to the protection of the livestock shippers to the South St. Paul market. Our organization has never asked for anything but what is honest and above board. All we have been asking for is fair treatment, and we have never got behind a measure in our State legislature that has not passed, and our legislature recognizes our body as an honest, strightforward body of the farmers of our State. They have never doubted our sincerity in coming before them and asking for any measure. We asked for a measure placing the weighing of livestock in the hands of our State railroad and warehouse commission and that measure was granted. Our shippers have always felt satisfied since we got that measure. It has been taken away from us and we have made objection to losing what we have fought so hard to gain. The reason we have asked for State weighing of the livestock was that we felt that conditions that existed in the stockyards could be improved upon, but not under the system that they were operating at that time, as has already been stated.

I was manager of our local association, and I came down to the stockyards with our stock, and sometimes things looked pretty queer to me. I did not distrust the stockyards or think that they were trying to give wrong weights, but I did mistrust the scales and the condition they were in. Sometimes we would have instances of some animal where we knew that the weight was wrong, but we could not get it corrected; there was no way to get it corrected, because that animal was probably taken down with all the other animals and there was no way to reweigh it. The animal was gone. Some time afterwards one of the boys that handled one of the scales for the stockyards people when they were doing the weighing told

He said

me of an instance that enlightened the situation to me. sometimes when he was operating the scale he had to shut it down and stop weighing, there was something wrong and he had to shut it down and get under the scale and chase the rats away that were under the scale. A rat would probably jump on a beam and make a difference probably all the way from 50 to 100 pounds, depending on what beam the rat got on. He would chase them away and then start weighing again. A rat jumping on one of those rods down there would make a difference of 70 to 80 pounds in weight sometimes, and it would make it on the wrong side, largely. I know I have weighed cattle on three different scales and they would not tally, they would all be different weights.

In regard to this being a burden on us shippers, let me say that when we asked for the legislation before our State legislature they asked who was going to pay the bill and we said, "The shippers will pay the bill. We know it is up to us to pay that bill." I will tell you lots of times we have paid the entire weighing fee in the case of veal calves. During the time when the stockyards people were weighing for us the scales broke on a 10-pound break. If you took a veal calf or a sheep and put him on the scale, especially when the price is high, it would probably make a difference of from 80 cents to a dollar, by breaking on a 10-pound break. We did not like that. Since the State got in there and new beams have been put on the scales they have been breaking on a 5-pound break, and there are some scales that break on a 1-pound break, and that is something the shippers appreciate very much-that is, that they can get more accurate weights.

When veal calves were selling about 10 cents a pound, when the scales broke on a 10-pound break, probably you had a loss of 6 or 7 pounds. Now, we get accurate weight and all in all we feel that we have got to have State weighing to satisfy the wants of our shippers. During the administration of the State, if a shipper had a complaint of any kind to make, when the State was there, he would go right to the office he could step right in to the office of the supervisor--and register his complaint, and possibly have it settled up by the next week when he came back. That is a relief to the shippers. The way it used to be he could never get it settled up.

I

Now, I do not think I will make any further statement, except that we farmers want the State to continue to do our weighing. thank you.

Mr. CLAGUE. Mr. Chairman, the next gentleman who desires to be heard is Mr. Good, of the stockyards company.

STATEMENT OF MR. T. E. GOOD, PRESIDENT ST. PAUL UNION STOCKYARDS CO., SOUTH ST. PAUL, MINN.

Mr. GOOD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am president of the St. Paul Union Stockyards Co. at South St. Paul, Minn. I have been in that position for five years. I have been in the service of Swift & Co. and the Swift interests for over 25 years, all of that time in and around packing houses and stockyards.

The St. Paul Union Stockyards Co. is a corporation. More than 50 per cent of the capital stock of the corporation is owned by Swift and Armour. This stock is held, as you gentlemen know, in escrow,

and is voted by Colonel Anderson, trustee appointed by the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia under a consent decree. Under the decree, Colonel Anderson does not interfere with the management of the yard, so long as the management obeys the law. If they violate the law he is empowered, through the voting power of that stock, to remove the entire board of directors and all officers and replace them with others who will obey the law. There is no secret about where the majority of stock is held, that the majority of stock of the St. Paul Union Stockyards Co. is held by the packers. It is true that six of the nine directors are officers or employees of Swift & Co. and Armour & Co.

It has been alleged that through this ownership of stock in the stockyards it is possible or probable that the packers will influence the weighing of livestock to the detriment of the producer. First of all, that would require that the managers of the stockyards be taken into their confidence; second, that the weighmaster must agree to it. In the 25 years that I have been connected with Swift & Co. and in the past five years with both Swift and Armour through the stockyards. I have had very close contact with the members of both families and with the officers and employees of both companies, and in all the 25 years of my service not one member of those families or any of the officers or employees of the companies has asked or requested or instructed me to do an act that was not absolutely upright and honorable.

Now, if Swift and Armour should descend so low in the scale of morality as to attempt to influence the weighing at the stockyards and swindle the farmer out of a few pounds of cattle, the man who did it would lay himself liable most likely to blackmail for the rest of his natural life. His business would be ruined by the exposure, which would inevitably follow. A thing of that kind could not be kept. It is an absolute fallacy for any man to believe that either Swift or Armour have ever attempted, or would ever attempt to influence the weighing of livestock through ownership of the stockyards.

The policy of the stockyards has always been a selfish one. It is operated for profit. We feel that if we are to prosper it is absolutely necessary for us to provide for the producer of livestock the|| best possible kind of stockyard service, and that at reasonable rates. with rules and regulations that are fair, under the supervision of whatever governmental agency which is finally selected to supervise our operations.

We have just as deep an interest in the welfare of the livestock producer as Mr. Lawrence, or Colonel Wilkinson, or the Railroad and Warehouse Commission of Minnesota, or the packers and stockyards administration. It is a matter of life and death with us and 1 is not with those people. For the past five years we have consistently stayed away from hearings before committees in connection with legislation affecting the stockyards. It is only within the past 30 days that we have found it necessary to change our policy. You have heard the testimony of yesterday and to-day and you can realize why it is necessary for us to now spend time to keep these records clear of misstatements and misunderstandings. That is why I am here to-day gentlemen.