Solicitor General) would like to be called upon at fo fhort a notice, to argue against a bill of that importance, and a fubject of infinite detail, and with which they might poffibly, neither of them, have been previoufly acquainted. The Counfel to be employed had fent a note declaring that they were not ready. How precipitate was the manner in which the right honourable gentleman was hurrying a bill of fuch importance through the Houfe! It was in gentlemen's hands fo wet from the prefs, that it was fcarcely poffible to open the leaves and read the claufes. He hoped, for the fake of decency, to a trade likely to be so much affected by a bill which would, by its operation, fo materially alter the regulations under which it was carried on, that the right honourable gentleman would think better of it, and confent to poftpone the fecond reading till Tuesday. As to the argument of the delay, the delay of a fingle day was of no confideration; for, as the public bufinefs stood at prefent, it would be impoffible for the feffion to be over before the end, or at fooneft, the middle of July.

das.

Mr. Dundas begged leave to remind the honourable gen- Mr. Dun tleman who fpoke laft, and the Houfe, that his right honourable friend had given notice that he meant to propofe a bill to put the collection of the duties on wines under the excife, fo long ago as before the Eafter recefs. Sufficient notice, therefore, had been given for the wine merchants to prepare against the bill which came into the House; but even putting that out of the queftion, he defired to learn what Counfel would wish for more, than eight and forty hours notice to prepare a fpeech on fuch a fubject as the extenfion of the excife laws? They all knew what fort of arguments were likely to be urged on fuch a theme as the excife laws. He, therefore, muft contend, that eight-and-forty hours notice was fully fufficient for any Counfel to prepare a speech on fuch a fubject. As an indifputable proof that the notice which his right honourable friend had given before the Eafter recefs, of his intention to put the collection of the wine duties under the excife, as well as repeated, after the recefs, had fpread through the country, Mr. Dundas produced and read a letter from Glafgow, dated May 16, from a wine merchant of that city, declaring that he would not be prefent at a meeting of the trade convened at Edinburgh, to take the intended bill into confideration, but that he approved of its principle as advantageous to the fair trader, although not having feen the bill, he could not fay whether fome of its claufes might not be objectionable; and if, when the bill came to hand, they appeared likely to be fo, he would readily join with the rest of the meeting in opposing them. This letter took the matter up very fendibly, while at

Fox.

Mr. Chan

the fame time it proved, that the notice given had not efcaped the general obfervation of even the more diftant parts of the country. The urgency of a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) and the other fide of the House, was neither more nor lefs than a preconcerted plan of procraftination. If his right honourable friend gave way, then the next day, doubtlefs, a long preliminary debate would be commenced and carried on to extreme length; the next day, the fame fyftem would be purfued, and fo on, day after day, until the feffion fhould become almost entirely wafted.

Mr. Fox contended that forty-eight hours did appear to him to be by far too fhort a notice for gentlemen of the gown to prepare on fuch a fubject. Undoubtedly that might be a full and fufficient period of preparation for the right honourable and learned gentleman to make a fpeech, to be delivered in that House before a majority willing to hear, and defirous of being convinced; and before fuch majorities the right honourable and learned gentleman had generally fo contrived it, that he had the good fortune to fpeak. The cafe was otherwife with the counsel to be heard against the bill; for, in all probability, they would not have a favourable majority to speak before; they would not find it an eafy task to enforce conviction, and they had no chance of fuccefs but from collecting undeniable facts, and urging irresistible arguments. With regard to the letter produced by the right honourable and learned gentleman, it proved little or nothing. The excife fcheme, with refpect to wines, might be knowa in Scotland, but little known near the metropolis. The diffolution of the laft Parliament had, he believed, been well known at Edinburgh, and throughout that part of the kingdom, before it was known in London; and poffibly it was known in Scotland that his India bill was to be thrown out in the Houfe of Lords, when he who was at the time fecretioribus confiliis of His Majefty, never dreamt of any fuch event being likely to happen. With refpect to the notice faid to have been given before Eafter by the right honourable gentleman, he did not recollect it. He indeed remembered a general notice long ago, that the honourable gentleman had it in contemplation to do fomething with the wines, but that certain pending treaties made him rather undecided and unprepared to speak upon the fubjeét.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt fupported the affertion of Mr. Duncellor Pitt. das, that he had given notice of his intended propofal before the Eafter recefs. He had firft mentioned it, in the fpeech in which he opened his propofal relative to the national finances, without ftating what was his particular intention, but fimply that fomething was to be brought forward on the wine duties. A few days afterwards he exprefly gave

notice that he fhould, fubfequently to the holidays, propofe to fubject thofe duties in part to the regulations of excite, and that, for the purpose of giving the House and the Public time to turn the matter in their minds; and very shortly after the recefs, he had more particularly renewed his notice.

Mr. Alderman Newnham faid that the bill contained a va- Mr. Ald. riety of regulations that the wine merchants in general felt Newnham, as harsh and oppreffive in the extreme. He also had been given to understand, that the excife laws would not apply to wines in like manner as they did in refpect to fpirits, and even in refpect to them, he was well affured, they had not anfwered the end, or by any means effectually prevented fmuggling. In regard to wines, if the bill paffed, he had great doubt whether inftead of being advantageous to the fair trader, the excife laws would not prove a benefit to the. unfair trader. At any rate, however, a fmall number of new officers might do in the beginning of the fcheme; but, he was perfectly fure that the number must be greatly increased, as the fcheme proceeded and increafed in extent, which must neceffarily increase the influence of the Crown in a very alarining degree.

Mr. Stele remarked that the feelings of the wine mer- Mr. Steele, chants had been very much alive and extremely vigilant, which would appear from their conduct in the courfe of the bufinefs, as they had met feveral times, and the refult of their meetings had been a determination to profecute the most violent and fyftematic oppofition to it. They had entered into refolutions to throw every embarraffment in their power into the way of it, and had opened a correfpondence with the reft of the trade in the feveral cities and boroughs in the kingdom, exciting their fellow merchant's to join in their oppofition to a bill, which they defcribed, in its principle, as deteftable and oppreflive in the extreme. This circumftance proved that they were by no means inattentive to the bill, and alfo that they had a fufficient knowledge of its principle and tendency, though the contrary was attempted to be argued; for if they were unacquainted with it then, their reprefenting it as oppreffive, and every thing elfe that was odious, and then refolving to give it, the moft active and vigorous oppofition, could appear in no other light than a factious defire of impeding the public bufinefs by fetting their faces against a meafure which they had not fufficient grounds to form a judgement upon. This, however, was a charge which he by no means intended to exhibit against them; but fuch gentlemen as pretended to argue, that they were not fufficiently acquainted with the nature of the bill, muft certainly admit the conclufion. For his own part, he only ufed the argument to prove that they

were

Mr. Sloper.

Mr. Steele.

Mr. Haficy

14r. Ryder.

were fully acquainted with the bill, as he could not fuffer himself to fuipect gentlemen of fuch character and confequence to be guilty of making ufe of fuch violent expreffions, on a fubject of which they are entirely ignorant. Taking all circumitances together, the conduct of the gentlemen on the other fide could only be accounted for, by imputing it to a defire to caft perfonal reflections on his right honourable friend, and to make ule of the wine merchants as an infrument for that purpose.

Mr. Stoper faid that he faw clearly, that as the wine merchants were hoftile to the bill, the honourable gentleman who fpoke laft, was hoftile to the wine merchants. Much frefs had been laid on the forty-eight hours notice; but did gentlemen fuppofe that the counted retained by the wine merchants had nothing elfe to attend to than the bill under confideration.

Mr. Steele faid that he had by no means caft a reflection on the wine merchants for having oppofed the bill without being acquainted with it. He had, on the contrary, ftated the reverfe, and that their oppofing it was a fufficient proof that they were acquainted with it.

Mr. Huffy acknowledged himself a friend to a Aill greater extenfion of the Excife laws, where the object was great and likely to be obtained. The object in the prefent cafes was 220,000l. If it could be made appear that fo large a portion of the annual revenue could be reftored, and fecured by the bill, it fhould have his fupport, but ftill, on every ground of reafon, candor, and juftice, he thould with the win-merchants' request for a little more time were complied, with. Let the right honourable gentleman remove all poffie bility of complaint, that thole who were to be affected by the bill, had not a fair hearing against it. Let him at fo as to make the meature go down imoothly and cheerfully; as leaft, let him affign fome good reafon to fhew, that the delay of the fecond reading till Tuefday, would be productive of material inconvenience to the public butinefs. The clamour expected against the bill had not hitherto gone forth. He therefore trufted that the right honourable gentleman would, agree to the requested poftponement.

Mr. Ryder diftinguished between the two forts of detail pointed out in the courfe of the debate, the detail of the wine trade, and the detail of the claufes of the bill. The latter was out of the question till the bill got into a Committee, the former the Counfel might have been weeks fince prepared to enter upon, as the wine merchants had fo long known fome meafure was about to be propofed to Parliament refpecting the articles of their trade.

Mr.

Mr.Martin.

cellor Fitt

Mr. Martin declared, that he had not heard any good reafon from the right honourable gentleman for not agreeing to let the bill be read a fecond time next Tuesday as requested. With regard to the bill, he had not made up his mind to it, He believed he fhould vote for it, but he thought the wine merchants ought to be indulged in their reasonable request. Mr. Chancellor Pitt expreffed his earneft inclinations to Mr. Chan reft the whole question on the grounds fuggefted by the honourable gentleman oppofite to him, and the honourable gentleman behind him, (Mr. Huffey and Mr. Martin), the inconvenience which might attend the delay required. From the difpofition hewn by many gentlemen, there was good reafon for believing that it was their intention to debate the bill in every stage of it; and there was no poffibility of judging what length of time it might take up in a Committee-if then the fecond reading was put off for the prefent, it could not come on till Tuesday next, and the Committes could not fit upon it until Friday-probably the whole could not be gone through on that day, and then it would necef-farily ftand over until after the Whitfuntide recefs, fo that it would be perfectly uncertain what progrefs they might be able to make-whereas, if they could go into the Committee on Tuesday, it might be all gone through before the recefs, and there would be the advantage of a confiderable time between the Committee and the report, for gentlemen to give it every degree of confideration.

Mr. Gafcogne oblerved, that he had fent a copy of the bill Mr. Gaf down to his conftituents at Liverpool, and he waited their conce anfwer. He faw nothing objectionable in the principle of the bill, and therefore he should vote for its being read a fecond time on that night; but he begged leave to lay in his claim for oppofing it, or any of its claufes, fhould his confituents point out to him, that they ought not to pas.

Mr. Fox begged leave again to affure the right honourable Mr. Førs gentleman (Mr. Pitt) that delay of the public bufinefs was not his object in being fo urgent upon the fubject. He would embarrass the future ftages of the bill as little as poffible, provided that the right honourable gentleman would in this inftance give way.

cellor Fir

Mr. Chancellor Pitt faid, that he fhould be happy to find Mr. Ch any opportunity of complying with the prefent, if he could have any fecurity from the gentlemen opposite to him, that there would be no unreafonable delay attempted in the future, ftages of the bill, that fo it might go through the Committee by Friday next, and gentlemen have the advantage of the recefs to confider properly of the matter, he should have no objection to acquiefce.

Ms.