Mr. Chan

port of his argument, the unanimous opinions of the gentlemen, who, from a zeal to preferve the militia upon a refpectable and an ufeful footing to the country, had affembled many times, and taken infinite pains to investigate the fubject, and fee how it could be best fettled, fo as to ensure the exiftence and the utility of the inflitution. He added, that furely the opinions of thofe gentlemen deferved fome attention on the part of the right honourable gentleman over against him.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt granted that it was highly effential to cellor Pitt. the interefts of the militia, that the laudable zeal which had hitherto marked the country gentlemen with respect to that fervice, fhould be encouraged and kept alive as much as poffible, and not damped or reftrained in the smallest degree, being firmly perfuaded, that if ever the fervice was to be deferted by perfons of that defcription, there would be an end of its ufe and refpectability. But, for his own part, he was not able to difcover how the prefent bill could poffibly be fuppofed to have a tendency to abate that zeal; and he inuft fay, that if gentlemen fuffered it to abate, it was their own fault, and not that of the bill. The honourable gentleman had not given any one reafon to fhew, that the calling out only two thirds of the militia annually would by any means tend to render it lefs adequate to the purpofe of fecuring a proper internal defence to the country; and unless that could be fhewn, the idea of diminishing its refpectability was perfectly groundlefs; for its refpectability muft neceffarily depend upon its utility. The honourable gentleman had admitted, that, in the ordinary practice, there ufed to be only five-fixths of the militia embodied, and the diminution of that fixth not attended with its proportionable reduction of expence; it was now only propofed to make the diminution one fixth more, that fo there fhould now be a reduction of two fixths instead of one, with a confiderable faving on both, As to the argument ufed by the honourable gentleman, that the faving was too inconfiderable to be looked on as an object, it was of fuch a nature, as he fhould, on all occafions, refift. In confidering on any reduction of the public expence, he should never weigh the amount of the faving to be made by it, but the fafety with which it might be made, and whether the Public could, with propriety, difpenfe with it. Almost every faving that had been or could be made on any of our establishments was in itself feparately confidered, infignificant and trifling; but it was in the refult of a general fyftem of economy, retrenching in every poffible cafe, and even in the minuteft articles of expence, that the Public were to expect a real benefit. Such an argument as had been ufed by the honourable gentleman would have put an effec

ual

tual bar to every ftep taken towards retrenchment; for if it had been determined to make no faving, except where a great and confiderable one could have been accomplished, every establishment must have continued to stand upon its own footing. In this very establishment of the militia, there had been inany reductions made on the fuggeftion of gentlemen, to whom the Public was highly indebted for their care and attention on the bufinefs; but each of thofe reductions were in themselves infinitely more trifling than that proposed to be made by the prefent claufe. He muft, upon the prefent occafion, beg leave to refer the honourable gentleman to the ftanding army, in which he would find that it was by no means as detrimental to that service, that the regiments fhould be reduced very much beneath their regular establishments, which was always the cafe in time of peace. On the contrary, it was perhaps a means of rendering each corps. more perfect in its difcipline, by giving it a greater proportional number of officers.

Mr. Alderman Sawbridge defired to know whether it was Mr. Aldermeant that two thirds of the militia fhould be trained and ex-man Sawercifed one year, and one of thofe thirds, not fo trained and bridge. exercifed the next year, but, in lieu of it, the third not trained and exercifed the first year; or, whether the fame two thirds were always to be trained and exercised, and the other third not at all?

Mr. Chancellor Pitt begged leave to refer the worthy Al-Mr. Chanderman to the bill for information, as the matter in queftion cellor Pitt. was fpecially provided for in one of the claufes.

Mr. Sheridan declared, that he could not refift that oppor- Mr. Sheritunity of expreffing his farprife and regret that the right ho- dan. nourable gentleman had not thought proper to give way on the prefent occafion. He ftated the confideration due to the gentlemen who had fo laudably flood for ward as friends of the militia, and urged the little regard that the difference of the expence deferved, when in fact the difference was fo mere a trifle between calling out two thirds of the militia annually, and calling out the whole.

Mr. Young anfwered, That the expence had not been the Mr. Young. great point upon which, in the Committee, it had been determined that only two thirds of the militia fhould be called out; but that it had been fo agreed, as a compromise with the general induftry of the country, and as a compromife with the hufbandmen, the manufacturers and the mechanics, to all of whom it was of material import that not more than two thirds of the artificers fhould be unneceffarily called away from their labour and working men.

Mr. Jolliffe declared, that the propofition for calling out the Mr. Jolliffe. whole of the militia ought to be refifted. Nay, his ideas

VOL. XX.

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went

went farther. As we had made fo good a fhift without calling out the militia at all for three years after the peace, he withed, and indeed he had at one time intended to have moved a claufe for the purpofe of vefting a power in the Crown, with the advice of the Privy Council, to call out the militia or not, once in every three years, at difcretion.

The Houfe divided, Ayes (for the amendment, as it flood, for two thirds of the militia) 49.-Noes 13.

The bill was then ordered to be engroffed with the amend

ment.

Mr. Alderman Sawbridge gave notice that he fhould, upon the enfuing Thurfday, make a motion for fhortening the duz ration of Parliaments; and though he had not very tai uine expectations of fuccefs, he hoped the reprefentatives of the people would convince him that they would do their duty. The Houle adjourned.

Friday, 9th June.

The Houfe having, at the inftance of the Secretary at War, refolved itfelf into a Committee of Supply,

A refolution was moved for a fum of money to be voted for the building of bridges and repairing of roads in that part of Great Britain called Scotland.

Mr. Brett then ftated, that a certain portion of the money was to be applied towards building the new houfe to be erected at the Admiralty.

Mr. Jolliffe obferved that he had not hitherto been an ear witnefs to the leaft plaufible argument to prove the neceffity for any fuch expenfive building as was, according to the plan he held in his hand, propofed to be erected. A great deal had been faid, indeed, about the want of more room for clerks' offices, &c.; but the plan mentioned nothing about clerks' offices. There was very intelligibly expreffed, eatingroom, drawing-room, library, and other defcriptions of the various parts of a fplendid manfion, but nothing about clerks' offices. The right honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer had, the preceding day, furnished him with an excellent ar gument against agreeing to the refolution. The right honourable gentleman had faid, that the great purposes and end of economy could only he looked for from an aggregation of favings in various departments; each feparately confidered, perhaps of a minute fize, but all put together, amounting to a large fum. That doctrine was fo unanfwerable, that he profeffed himfelf its convert; and he begged leave to give the first proof of his zeal, by a ftrenuous oppofition of the prefent motion. With regard to the Admiralty office, as it now flood, not being adequate to all the purpofes of the public bufinefs, he knew to the contrary.

I

Mr.

kin.

Mr. Hopkins declared, that he fhould not have been fur- Mr. Ilopprized, had any gentleman, who was a perfect firanger to the Admiralty Office, flated the objections made against the propofed new building; but he was not a little aftonished to hear the honourable gentleman, who ought to have known fomething of the office, and who had exprefsly told the Houfe, that he did know it perfectly well, ftand up and af fert, that the bufinefs could be carried on conveniently in the prefent building. The fact was fo much the reverfe, that it was with the utmoft inconvenience that the business had been of late years carried on in the prefent office, and fo fully convinced was he of the truth of this affertion, that were it in the nature of things practicable and confenant to their forms of proceeding, for a Committee of that Houfe to take a furvey, he was fure they would theinfelves admit that the intended alteration was highly neceffary, and that the present Board of Admiralty would not have done their duty if they had not propofed it.

Mr. Francis faid, the argument of the honourable gentle- Mr. Fra man, and the plan he held in his hand (the architect's plan cis. and defign for the new building) were irreconcileable and abfolute enigmas. The honourable gentleman had talked of the want of clerks' offices, and of rooms to affort papers in, and the plan purported to be a place for an elegant manfion. How would building a fuperb dwelling houfe, afford new offices for clerks to write in?

Mr. Hopkins anfwered, that the prefent dwelling houfe of Mr. Hopthe First Lord of the Admiralty was to be converted into kins. offices for the clerks and rooms for the papers to be afforted in, and the firit Lord was to occupy the new dwelling house in its room.

Mr. Fox obferved, that if there was really a propriety in Mr. Fox. building a new house for the first Lord, he was one of those who fould never object to a vote for the purpose, and it would be a fit matter for difcuffion in that Houfe; but he did not approve of coming to the Houfe and ftating, that there wanted rooms for the office papers to be afforted in, and more rooms for the clerks to write in, and then producing a plan for a houfe for the first Lord of the Admiralty. He thought it incumbent upon the Admiralty Board to have first proved to the fatisfaction of that Houle, that new and fufficient rooms for clerks, for papers, &c. could not be provided for a smaller fum than it would cost to build a handsome new houfe for the firft Lord of the Admiralty, or that a more economical plan could not be found out, than the converting fo large and capacious a dwelling as that at prefent inhabited by the firft Lord of the Admiralty into offices for clerks. As neither of thefe matters had been af

ferted, nor any thing like a proper explanation offered of the real neceffity for the expenfive building propofed, he should give his vote against the refolution.

Mr. Huffey Mr. Huffey obferved, that he had made it a conftant rule to object to applying the public money in that manner, and he thould object, in the prefent inftance, because the circumstances of the country would not admit of it. In his opinion, a right honourable gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) ought to have prevented any fuch application to that Houfe. The right honourable gentleman profefled to be a friend to faving the public money, and that could only be effected by a rigid and unrelenting œconomy. As the Admiralty bufinefs had been for fo many years carried on in the prefent building, he thould imagine it might ftill continue to be carried on there, but he declared that he faw no fort of neceffity for going to work in this most extravagant manner, even if it were admitted, that all the facts ftated of the want of rooms were ftrictly true-At prefent two of the Lords of the Admiralty had no houfes provided for them-why then could not two more vacate their houses, and let them be converted into offices for clerks and rooms for papers? The two Lords fo quitting their dwellings, could eafily be recompenfed by an allowance of 2001. or 300l. a year a-piece, in lieu of their houses; and that would be a trifling expence compared to the fum wanted for the propofed new building. The money charged in the estimate for the new building was 13000l. but every man at all acquainted with building, knew the difference between efti mates and the ultimate amount of the expence incurred. For his part, he had determined to meet the refolution with a negative.

Mr. Bicit.

Mr. Brett contended for the abfolute neceffity for fome addition to the Admiralty Office, as at prefent there was by no means room enough, nor was it poffible to carry on the public bufinefs in time of war with neceffary fecrecy. As to the idea of its being either advantageous or defireable for the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty to have the new houfe inftead of that he at prefent poffeffed, there was not the finalleft foundation for it. The change would, in fact, be difadvantageous to the firft Lord of the Admiralty, as there were more rooms in his prefent houfe than in the propofed new one. But the fact was, the prefent firft Lord acted in this particular, as in all others, upon public motives folely. He knew the inconveniences of the office, and he had too-much regard for the public fervice to leave them in their prefent fituation. As to any perfonal confideration, it was a matter of uncertainty, who would refide in the new building.

Mr.