Sir F. Burdett suggested, whether it would not be better that ministers should hand in the list of names they had prepared, and so save the House much unnecessary trouble, and a round-about way of proceeding, which would only end in what he proposed. Mr. Bennet expressed himself of the same opinion. It was quite impossible for the House and the country not to see that the ministers had the naming of the committee. Mr. Dent said, that till he heard a better reason for departing from the usual practice, he should adhere to that prac tice. The clerk then read over the names of the members, and lists of members for the proposed committee were thrown into the glass on the table. No member of the opposition put in a list. The chancellor of the exchequer next moved, that a committee be appointed to examine the lists, and to report what members had the majority of votes. The Speaker named Mr. Brogden, Mr. Calcraft, Mr. Serjeant Onslow, Mr. Lambton, Mr. M'Donald, and lord Binning. Mr. Lambton said, that since it was already perfectly well known and determined who were to be the committee, he would rather decline taking any part in picking up their names. The Speaker said, that he had to apologise to the hon. gentleman, if he had named him to an office which was unacceptable to him. No names for the committee in question had been handed to him, and he had, at the moment, fixed upon those who occurred to him as fit to discharge the duty. Mr. Tierney said, that there was no doubt that his hon. friend was fit for any duty which required impartiality; but there had been so little impartiality in the proceeding hitherto, that he should think it hard that the ministers, after having settled in private who should be the members of the committee, should show their impartiality by detaining for an hour or two a gentleman who had no interest In their proceedings. As they had settled the list of the committee, they might as well name the scrutineers also. A member observed, that he did not understand the remarks of the right hon. gentleman, as to ministers dictating the names on the lists. He had that morning found a list on his table, but he had not adhered to it; he had inserted in place of some of the names, other names, from the opposite bench, of practical gentle men. He, therefore, felt indignant at the imputation of having given in a prescribed list. Mr. Tierney said, that he should be sorry to be supposed to have included in his charge all the members of the House. But he could tell the hon. gentleman, who was not, he believed, a member of the last parliament, that he had found, from uniform experience, that the same lists were found, by the same accident, on the table of a great number of other gentlemen, and, by the same uniform experience he had found that those who possessed the independence of the hon. member were in the minority, and the majority was composed of those who put the lists in the glass just in the same state as they had found them on their tables. Mr. Waithman said, that he had found no list on his table [a laugh.] The Speaker then named another committee, retaining only Mr. Brogden and lord Binning of those formerly named. They immediately retired to examine the lists, and in the course of the evening, Mr. Brogden reported the names of the persons to be the secret committee, viz. lord Castlereagh, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Canning, Mr. Wellesley Pole, Mr. Lamb, Mr. F. Robinson, Mr. Grenfell, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. James Abercromby, Mr. Bankes, Sir James Mackintosh, Mr. Peel, Sir John Nicholl, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Stuart Wortley, Mr. Manning, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Ashhurst, and Sir John Newport. WESTMINSTER HUSTINGS BILL.] Mt. Bennet having moved that the bill be now read a third time, Sir F. Burdett said he should have been strongly inclined to forward any measure which would indemnify the gentleman for whose relief this bill was intended, from any unforeseen expenses which had fallen on him, if his public duty allowed him so to do. But on the consideration of this question, divested of private feelings, he could not agree that the gentleman who held the office of high bailiff of Westminster should be allowed to throw off his own shoulders the burthen of an office which he voluntarily had undertaken. Not only had this task been voluntarily undertaken, but he had paid a large sum of money for the office. The law which the This office they had sold; and though it present bill was intended to continue was first passed in the year 1811, on the re-happened in the present instance it could commendation of a committee, which at the time of recommending it stated, that it was objectionable, but that pressed, as they conceived themselves to be, by the necessity of the case, imagining (as he thought, without any good grounds) that the peace of Westminster depended on its passing, they had brought it forward as the best measure which occurred on the spur of the occasion. This act, stultified as it might be said to have been by its authors, had now continued for seven years, and he thought the House would agree that they were not warranted in renewing a measure which was so objectionable in itself. The high bailiff had stated that the profits of his office were only 2001. a year-a statement on the face of it hardly probable with respect to a place for which that gentleman had given 4,000l. But if they looked into the ac counts they would see the cause of it. The gross profits were 450l.; but out of this there was reserved a rent of 150l. to the dean and chapter, and the high bailiff moreover paid 100l. a year to a deputy. But if by reason of these deductions, the high bailiff was unable to bear the burthen of the office, he surely was not entitled to come to parliament for relief. It was a law principle, that benefit and burthen should go together. Where the benefit of the office was equal to the burthen, but the benefit was divided among a number of individuals, it was not to be contended, that they should be relieved from the necessary charges of it, because the sum could not otherwise be divided among so many. The dean and chapter had sold the office, and had reserved a rent out of it. The House had nothing to do with that. The high bailiff appointed a deputy to execute the duties which he did not perform in person; the House also had nothing to do with that. The high bailiff therefore was in the condition of any man who had made an improvident bargain, and was not entitled to come to the House for relief. At any rate, it was not on the candidates that the burthen should be thrown. The dean and chapter had made the office a matter of emolument, which in its nature was an office of the highest trust. The high bailiff in Westminster had to perform all the duties of a sheriff in a county. To impannel juries, to return the members, and to preserve the peace of the city. not have been better filled, it was evident that this was mere accident, for they had only confirmed the appointment made by Mr. Browning, the present high bailiff's predecessor. On them, therefore, if not on the high bailiff, the burthen of the election should fall; for he considered the attempt to cast the expenses on the already over-burthened poor-rates as objectionable as the proposal to throw it on the candidates. The charges made at elections were formerly considered as an emolument, rather than as a bare remuneration to the high bailiff: the charges which had been made upon him (sir F. Burdett) on a former occasion he had resisted, as he thought the principle unjust. The chief justice of the court of King'sbench had decided that he was liable to pay the expenses-but they were reduced to the legal charges, which turned out to be very trifling. It was proved, therefore, that even at present, under this decision (which he certainly had thought objectionable), the high bailiff could get his legal expenses; the present bill, therefore, could only be considered as a sanction for the extortion of excessive charges. He therefore should propose, that the bill should be read a third time on this day fortnight, to give time for a committee to inquire, that the House might legislate with deliberation. To him it seemed plain on whom the burthen should fall. The church had been very astute in taking the good things of the world, and throwing from its shoulders the burthens of it; but it seemed plain to him, that the collegiate church of Westminster, being in the habit of making a profit of the high office with the disposal of which they were entrusted, and being possessed of estates charged with the performance of the duties of that office, should pay the expenses with which the duties of it were burthened. The hon. baronet expressed his opinion, that rather than let the present bill pass, it would be much better to have the candidates at the next election called upon to pay a specific sum for the expense of the hustings; for such a levy, although he could not think it strictly justifiable, would be a much lesser evil than permanently to burthen the people of Westminster. Such a burthen ought obviously not to be imposed without any previous inquiry, and especially on a place where the election was decidedly more free and popular than inquiry upon the subject of the Bank resany other part of the empire. Sir R. Wilson followed on the same side. He observed, that in his opposition to this measure, he did not mean to act invidiously towards the high bailiff, but he thought that the dean and chapter should rather be called upon to pay the expenses of the election. The law, he said, required that every member of parliament should be possessed of 300l. a year; but the enormous charges of the high bailiff of Westminster might oblige an independent man, of small fortune, to mortgage, for a space of three years and a half, the property which would entitle him to sit in that house. It was not true, that county members were obliged to pay the election expenses: it was altogether optional with them. If county candidates did not think fit to give three days notice of their intention to stand the election, they were not legally bound to pay the expenses. triction, should on this occasion be such a strenuous opponent of inquiry-thus preferring precipitate injustice, to tardy justice. If the high bailiff had made a bad bargain, and could not be reimbursed by the dean and chapter, he should seek it at the hands of those who derived be. nefit from the arrangements necessary on such occasions; namely, the parties represented. With this view of the subject, if a division were pressed, he should be happy to be in a minority with the hon. baronet. Mr. Bennet observed, that no one but the hon. baronet had maintained the singular doctrine, that the expense attending the erection of hustings for the Westminster election should be defrayed by the high bailiff. If, indeed, this doctrine were admitted, in what a situation would the high bailiff be placed! Seven years had elapsed since this officer had purchased his office, and if the hon baronet's doctrine Mr. Lawson said, that in a constitu- were established, he must have lost within tional point of view he thought there were that period no less than 3,000l. It had serious objections to the bill. He did been stated, that the candidates at a not think that the expenses of elections Westminster election had to pay 2,000. should fall upon any of the candidates to the high bailiff for the expense of the not, certainly, on the unsuccessful can-hustings; but this statement was utterly didate. It was unreasonable to demand that the political criminal should defray the expense of erecting that scaffold on which had been executed his hopes, his character, and not unfrequently his fortune. Nor was it fair at this game, that the loser should pay for the tables. According to the good old practice of the constitution, candidates were paid for their attendance in parliament, on the principle that elections took place for the benefit of the people; and he did not see why this practice should have been discontinued; for members ought to be remunerated for their trouble, whatever might be thought upon the subject by those who resorted to taverns instead of attending that House, and who looked for their remuneration to some casual extortion or unduly acquired place. But the opinion of such persons could have no weight with him [a cry of question!] He was surprised at the haste with which the hon. mover sought to press this measure. Although a professed advocate for parliamentary reform, the hon. member would not allow time to inquire upon a subject so interesting to the public. It was strange that the hon. mover, who was the other night such an advocate for in untrue, as was another allegation very confidently made, that one of the candidates at the last election had a claim made upon him for 9001. So far was this from being true, that 900/. formed the whole amount of the charge for hustings, &c. at the last election. But dismissing these falsehoods, the question for the consideration of the House was this-was it fitting or just that the high bailiff should be obliged to pay the expense arising out of the erection of hustings necessary for the conduct of a contested election? The high bailiff had already suffered a severe loss, and a special act was passed for his relief from such a hardship. Yet to such hardship would this officer be again exposed, if the present bill were not passed into a law. But this bill was, in fact, in strict conformity with the principle of the law with regard to the elections for counties, and a mere transcript of the law which had existed in Westminster itself for above seven years, during which it was never petitioned against. No objec tion to this law had, indeed, ever been made either by the candidates for Westminster or their constituents, since its enactment. Yet it was now proposed by the hon. baronet to have this officer ren dered liable for an expense which it was no more fitting that he should pay, than that he (Mr. B.) should be called upon for it. was accordingly read a third time, and passed. List of the Minority. Harvey, D. W. Sebright, sir J. Williams, W. Wellesley, W. P. T.L. Burdett, sir F. Wilson, sir R. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, February 4. COTTON FACTORIES.]-The Earl of Lauderdale observed, that as a noble lord had given notice of his intention to move to-morrow for a committee to take into consideration the number of hours during which children were employed in the cotton factories, he wished to call that noble lord's attention to the real state of the case. The subject had been under consideration last year, in consequence of its having come before their lordships in the shape of a bill from the Commons; and he thought it might have been allowed to take the same course again. He did not Mr. D. W. Harvey observed, that although all sheriffs, and other returning officers in the country, were indemnified for any expense connected with elections, the high bailiff of Westminster should in equity be excepted from such in. demnity: the services of the former being compulsory, while that of the latter were voluntary. The former were compellable by law to accept their offices, and to discharge the duties attached to them; but the high bailiff had taken his office from choice, and for the acquisition of profit. This, indeed, appeared from the report of the committee with respect to that office, the high bailiff having confessedly paid 5,000l. for it originally, and avowed before the committee, that in making that purchase, he calculated upon deriving profit from the return of members to that house. Was it to be endured as a principle, that a public officer should be allowed to obtain profit for executing the king's writ, and making the return of a member to that house? For these rea-mean to say any thing at present on the sons he should vote with the hon. baronet. Mr. Hume observed, that the hon. mover had put the question for the consideration of the house on this occasion rather unfairly. For the question was not, whether the high bailiff should pay the expense of a Westminster election or not, but whether that expense should be defrayed by the dean and chapter. This was the real question, and upon this he felt himself called to vote for the amendment, in order to afford time for examination. It was a principle always maintained by the chancellor of the exchequer, that where any man could obtain redress in a court of law, he was not entitled to make an appeal to that house. The high bailiff in making his contract for the pur chase of his place, ought to have been apprized of the expenses to which he was liable in the execution of its duties. If so, he had no grievance to complain of on the point before the house; but if not, he had his remedy by law, being entitled to tell the dean and chapter, that if they would not pay the expenses connected with the Westminster election, they must make the return themselves. The house divided on the original motion, "That the bill be now read a third time;" Ayes, 32; Noes, 10. The bill merits of the question, but he wished to appeal to the candour of the noble lord, on two different points, as grounds for the postponement of his motion. In the first place, it would be recollected, that great difficulty had been experienced in the course of last session to find a sufficient number of members to attend the committee. The noble lord was, however, going to propose its re-appointment at a time when several noble lords were about to be appointed to conduct a most important investigation. The second point was this: he had just received a voluminous mass of papers connected with this subject, the details of which were stated to contain proof that the late disturbances at Manchester, and other places where cotton manufactories were established, had been occasioned by the misrepresentations which prevailed last year, when the investigation of this subject was going on. This was a most important assertion, and he wished to have the opportunity of examining the evidence for it, as it ought not to be made without a statement of the grounds on which it was founded; but he could not read all the papers before Monday. Much mischief had been done by the circulation of mutilated extracts of the evidence which had been heard last session. From what he had stated, he trusted the noble lord would postpone his motion, at least till Monday, if not longer. Lord Kenyon wished to afford every opportunity for a full and free enquiry. He was, therefore, not unwilling to comply with the request of the noble earl, so far as to postpone the motion he intended to make until Monday, but he did not think it right to consent to a longer delay. With regard to what the noble earl had said, as to the difficulty of finding members to attend the committee of last session, he should only remark, that there was not a single day on which the committee had not met and transacted business. As to statements on the subject of the investigation, not consistent with fact, having been circulated, he did not doubt but such might have been the case; but at the same time he must observe, that a very different opinion from that alluded to by the noble earl was entertained by many respecting the origin of the disturbances. SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE BANK BALLOTTED FOR.] A ballot took place for a secret committee to consider the state of the Bank of Eng. land, with reference to the resumption of cash payments, &c. The election fell upon the following lords, viz. :-The lord president (earl of Harrowby), the duke of Wellington, the marquess of Lansdown, the duke of Montrose, the earl of Liver. pool, the earl of St. Germans, earl Bathurst, viscount Sidmouth, the earl of Aberdeen, viscount Granville, lord King, lord Grenville, lord Redesdale, and the earl of Lauderdale. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Thursday, February 4. PETITION OF DENNIS SULLIVAN.] Mr. Bennet said, he held in his hand a petition from a person called Dennis Sullivan, who stated that he had received a severe wound in his majesty's service, in consequence of which he had been ren dered incapable of labouring for his support. He thought it would appear to every member who took the trouble of inquiring into the circumstances of the case, that there could not be a more distressing situation than that in which this unfortunate individual was placed. He had been disabled in the service of his king and (VOL. XXXIX.) country, and yet, because he wanted one document (a smart ticket), he must be turned out to starve! A more urgent case than the present, had never, in his opinion, called for the attention of the persons at the head of the Admiralty. Whether this man's claim had failed from want of form in the manner in which he had applied, he knew not; but it was certain that he had applied for a pension, and that his claim had not been recog nized. He was sure if the Admiralty would take the circumstances of the case into consideration, they would find that his claims ought not to be resisted. It appeared, from his own declaration, that he had served twelve years in the navy, and that having been disabled by a severe wound, he had been discharged in 1814; that he possessed certificates from the officer under whom he had last served, showing that he had been wounded in the service; that he was unable to work in consequence of his wound; but that he could not establish his claim to a pension, because he had neglected to get a smartticket when he was discharged. Sir George Cockburn stated, that in all matters of this kind, the Admiralty were obliged to follow the regulations of an order in council. It was indispensably necessary to have a smart ticket, in order to be entitled to any pension, and as the petitioner had not such a ticket, under the existing regulations, he was not entitled to a pension. Ordered to lie on the table. CONDUCT OF MR. WYNDHAM QUIN.] Sir Robert Wilson rose and said, it was his painful duty to present a petition for which he was sure the house would have deep regret, any occasion should appear. to have been offered, since the allegations contained in it, if proved, would subject not only a gentleman in a distinguished station at the Irish bar, but also a member of that house, to its severest animadversion for a breach of privilege, affecting its honour and dignity, subversive of the freedom of elective franchise, and those securities which should guard the sanctuaries of justice, as well as of the constitution. He lamented the hon. member was not in England; but as he had received intimation of the petitioner's intention, and the petitioner's private interests would be much injured by an indefinite delay, he trusted the house would not think the petition had been precipitately brought for(U) |