friends; and even that now they were about to be deprived of the emolument which they had so long enjoyed, not one of them was chosen to fill up a vacancy in another situation which could not be called unnecessary! He was persuaded that were his majesty competent to comprehend this arrangement, nothing would be likely to mortify his wishes more, than to have his oldest servants and favourites thus illiberally treated. But how was this treatment to be regarded by any friend to justice, when the recent conduct of ministers was considered? Since the queen's death a vacancy had occurred among the lords of the bedchamber attending the prince regent, and instead of appointing one of the old lords, to whom he had alluded, to fill that vacancy, the appointment was granted to a new adherent of the minister. Was this proceeding fair or liberal? He would dismiss that part of the question, and come to another. With respect to the sum of 10,000l. to be given to the duke of York, he should say, that any extra expense to which his royal highness might be put in the care of his majesty, ought most undoubtedly to be defrayed by the public, be the sum great or small; but as it was very fairly put by the hon. gentleman on the other side, if that sum be necessary, let it be shown how it was so,-let the house be informed what that sum was for, and how it was to be expended. The hon. gentleman had stated that which was the fact, when he said, that in 1812, on the proposition of the sum of 10,000l. to the queen, the chancellor of the exchequer declared that a great part of it would go to make good certain family expenses which she would be put to that she could not always be supposed to wish to reside in Windsor, and that as queen consort she would be at many additional expenses, which, under other circumstances, she would not have to incur in the custody of the king's person. He was not satisfied that it was not too much! but it was voted to her majesty, and it would be but fair to ask how it had been applied, and what had become of it. If the same grant were shown to be necessary for the duke of York, he should be ready to accede to it, thinking his royal highness, as he did, the fittest person that could be selected to superintend the care of his father's person. Let its necessity be proved, and he had no objection. His opinion was the same with respect to all the other items : of expenditure which it might be necessary to incur with respect to the king. He would say, show me that this, that, or the other expense could contribute, in any one way, in the slightest degree, to his majesty's comfort or convenience; that it could serve even to gratify that caprice, or humour any puerile whim, to which his unfortunate state rendered him subject if that could be made out, he would not hesitate to give to his sovereign not only 10,000l. but 500,000l. a year. But then, in the discharge of that duty which he owed the public, he would not consent to vote a single shilling which was not within the range of that principle. Let the noble lord lay before the house, not merely the sums which were said to be required, but something like the particulars of what they were for, and then it would not be difficult to come to a right understanding; but while they were wrapped up in 100,000l. and 50,000l. and 108,000l. it would be impossible to know any thing farther about them than that these large sums were asked for purposes not fully explained. There was, for instance, the sum of 50,000l., which was said to be for the Windsor establishment;—now that was the very thing he wished to have explained. How was it necessary? For his part he could not conceive how it was to be expended. Fifty thousand pounds for the establishment at Windsor, for the support of his majesty in his present unhappy state! To whom and for what particular use, connected with the due and dignified support of the king, was this sum to be given? His majesty, it was too well known, was incapable of even ordinary enjoyments. He could not, if he were rightly informed, speak or be spoken to; and indeed the necessary measures which were taken for the preservation of his health, and, if possible, the cure of his malady, rendered such a seclusion from every thing like conversation absolutely essential. His regimen was, from the same cause, so very plain, that the tenth of 50,000/ would be much more than sufficient to supply it, with all the necessary forms of attendance. Then how was the sum of 50,000l. to be expended?. But the noble lord would say, that it would come out in the committee. He had no objection to the committee-he was thankful for it, but it was not to the economical dispositions of ministers he owed those thanks. He owed them to the gencral election-to the manner in which fourth of them was unnecessary, was now to swallow up the immense sum which had been named. He did not say that the attendance of a nobleman ought to be dispensed with, for he admitted that some such man of rank should attend to see that the servants did their duty in a proper manner; but then he could not see why such nobleman should have six equerries under him. He did not mean to say that the noble lord could not make out the case in the committee; but until it was clearly made out to him that such a vast expense was necessary, he should oppose it. The noble lord had spoken of the privy purse, and said that it was the private property of the king; that he (Mr. T.) most distinctly denied. The arrangement, indeed, at the commencement of the king's reign was contradictory to such an assertion. According to that arrangement his majesty was granted a privy purse of 50,000l. a year, which grant was afterwards augmented to 60,000l. But for what purpose was that grant made?Why, to gratify his majesty's disposition to beneficence-to perform acts of grace the returning officers were occupied at the late election, to the returns which they were called upon to make, and to those dispositions on the subject of economy which were then evinced by the people. Ministers did not come forward with the tone of confidence which they were, not long since, in the habit of assuming, and offer to take the responsibility of this measure upon themselves, without any previous inquiry. Their tone was changed, but their disposition still remained. For they proposed a scale of expenditure, for which it was in his view quite impossible to imagine any just necessity. If the noble lord would show that such expense was really necessary, he would be among the first to accede to it. Who were they who were to reside at Windsor? and for whose accommodation such expenses could be required? If it were desired to provide only for the personal comfort and accommodation of the king, a comparatively small sum indeed would be amply sufficient. Was it meant that the duke of York was to reside at Windsor? If so, he should know what to say to that. But to assist a favourite child, or privately it was said that some one of consideration to relieve the distress of some noble family, should reside at Windsor, to receive the which, however severe its necessities, could counsel, who occasionally meet there to not possibly appeal to public charity. The receive reports as to the state of the privy purse was granted, he would mainking's health. The noble lord had ob- tain, for purposes of that nature, and not served that some great nobleman should to be converted into private property. It be stationed there for that purpose. was granted not to be saved, but to be Well, be it so; and any additional expense spent in deeds of benevolence and charity. that might be necessary for that purpose The sum was granted, not because the he would agree to, as such attend-man was liked more or less, but because ance would be fitting the dignity of he was a sovereign prince, and in no the king; for he would not have his other capacity could he use it. His royal majesty, on such occasions, waited highness the Prince Regent, who was upon by a mere maître d'hotel. He would acting as the sovereign prince of this not, indeed, leave him wholly on country, had an equal sum of 60,000l. such occasions, even to colonel Stephen- a year granted to him in 1812; and the son, much and justly as that individual country was burdened by the unfortunate was respected. But in the name of com calamity of the king, with an expense for mon sense, what occasion could there be privy purses alone, of 120,000l. He confor the attendance of the six equerries, tended, that as this sum was only given whom the noble lord had mentioned? Of to the sovereign of the country in his what use could they be? To give a character as such, the moment it ceased bulletin once a month in their turn; but to be used in that character, it reverted surely that could not require the attend-back to the public; for it would not be ance of six gentlemen, and the expense of maintained, that the Prince Regent would, supporting their tables. This question of in any other capacity than as the reigning, supporting a certain number of tables or the representative of the reigning sovewould no doubt be urged. The table of reign, have got an annual grant of 60,000l. the king could not, in the way he lived, at his disposal without any control; neicost more than a few hundred pounds; ther would the king, but as such; and and the tables of those who were to at- then he maintained that only one 60,000l. tend him, when the attendance of one-should be considered private property, as only one person could be called a reigning prince at the same time in the country. Yet in 1812, 10,000l. a year in addition was granted to her majesty. Now he submitted, that if the same sum were deemed necessary to defray the expense of the duke of York upon his new appointment, that sum should rather be paid out of the privy purse, than saddled upon the country. The physicians were, it appeared, to be paid out of the proposed grant, and to that part of the proposition he could, of course, feel no objection. He next came to the proposed remuneration to be granted to retired servants of his majesty out of the privy purse. On this head it was asserted, that the proceeding was founded on the presumed wishes of the sovereign, and what he would have most probably himself done, if enabled to exercise a discretion. Who could say in what way, or in favour of what particular person, his majesty would exercise that discretion? What man upon earth could decide whom it would please his majesty thus to remunerate? Even if the sovereign felt such a disposition towards one servant at one period of his life, who could say that such a disposition would have remained unaltered? It was too much to contend, that independently of those persons whom his majesty had been in the habit of rewarding, it was certain that he would, had he regained his health, have rewarded others, and upon this presumption to found their title to a provision by parliament. A thousand such cases might have occurred, but it was beyond the wit of man to select them now. They were at present considering things as they stood in the natural course of the establishment, and there was no pretence for contending that such allowances should be take from the privy purse. To the maintaining of all that had been done by the king himself he had not the slightest objection. Next, as to the remuneration to the physicians. On that point the noble lord had not given any explanation. It was stated to be 32,000l. per annum. That he believed to be an over-statement, the amount being, he believed, 28,000l. Such a sum as that must strike every man as enormous. It was, therefore, but justice to explain it. If, in what he was about to state, the noble lord conceived there was any indelicacy, he had only to express in any manner such a feeling, and he would not persevere. His desire was only to give a reason why he would not press any objec tion to a charge which at first view must strike every person as enormous. He had then been given to understand, that when his majesty was unhappily visited with the affliction under which he laboured, and was about to be committed to the care of physicians, he had made it his most earnest prayer to the illustrious personage, standing in the nearest relation to him, that he never should be exclusively placed under the care of physicians of a certain description, to whom patients in his majesty's condition were consigned, without having always in attendance one out of three other physicians, whom he particu larly named. That promise he obtained from her late most excellent majesty, and it was by her most religiously kept. That promise being once made, it was his opinion should, under all circumstances, be most sacred. If the consciousness of such a disposition could in any degree alleviate the sufferings of his affliction, to remove it would be a most barbarous act. But, as one of those physicians, during the day, would be sufficient for the purpose, he was disposed to think some medium might be struck out, from whence a considerable saving might be derived to the country.— On what had fallen from the noble lord, relative to the remuneration to the servants of her late majesty, he felt himself much in the dark. They were to have the whole of their salaries during their lives; but, added the noble lord, that was but the half of what they before got.-He never knew that fact before. So that these servants, when the country supposed they had salaries of but 500l. per annum, were actually receiving 1,000l. If that was the case, one would suppose that they had already received full remuneration for the whole of their deserts. They had been paid beforehand too, and the country had a claim upon them for the interest. Still, if it were the common practice on the demise of the queen to continue such salaries for life, he was not disposed to object to it on this occasion. He had heard, that the practice was, to give the salaries for life to the female servants; but he never understood the rule was applied to male servants. Nevertheless, it was contended, that the whole charge ought to remain-a truth, if it were one, for which he was sorry, as it would cost the country 25,000l. a year. He had no wish to detract from the real splendor and dignity of the crown, and he would not oppose this regulation,, if it should appear to be in conformity with old and established usage. His observation went no farther than to state, that where a saving was practicable it ought to be carried into effect: as he was ready on the one hand to make sacrifices for supporting the accustomed dignity of the crown, so he was anxious to secure the benefits of practicable economy for the people. As strongly attached as any man to the House of Brunswick, he was disposed to grant every proper and becoming splendor to the royal family, always measuring that disposition by strict justice to the public interest. But, while he felt so, he could not but express the conviction, that an establishment of 50,000l. per annum for the king, in his present unhappy situation, was unnecessary.-And here he must dissent from the manner in which the noble lord viewed the question. It was not to be considered, as the noble lord conceived, as a question upon which parliament was to inquire how much was to be saved? The duty of the House was to consider what was to be expended. To the comforts of the king, and to as much dignity as it could be supposed was necessary in his affliction, he would willingly consent. He was distinctly in favour of maintaining some establishment at Windsor, because he should regret to see a venerable and beloved monarch, reduced, in his affliction, to reside in a palace not his own. He should be sorry indeed to see him in the condition of a lodger. He thought his establishment should have a nobleman of rank at its head, and that one or two equerries should be in attendance to receive the visits of distinguished foreigners who might desire to see Windsor Castle. But an establishment on any larger scale, an establishment incumbered with five or six equerries, went beyond whatever conceptions he could form of propriety. The noble lord might hereafter explain his views, so as to remove these objections; but unless the scruples with which they at present filled him could be satisfied, he must feel it his duty to negative the proposition. He was aware that the subject was one of great delicacy. For himself, he could have no other object than to honestly discharge the duty he owed to his aged and infirm sovereign, not forgetting, at the same time, what was due to the wants of the country. With respect to the sum of 10,000l. to his royal highness the Duke of York, if it was necessary, it should be granted: but it ought most unquestionably to be charged on the privy purse. Mr. Canning expressed his confidence, that the admissions of the right hon. gentleman, if acted upon frankly, and in the spirit in which they professed to be made (and he did not doubt that they would be so), would bring him and his noble friend much nearer in their opinions and views of the subject, than the right hon. gentleman at present perhaps supposed. His noble friend had specifically stated, that the various estimates would be laid before the select committee. That information therefore, the absence of which had been regretted by the right hon. gentleman would be supplied. The House were not called upon to vote for the appointment of the committee with any pledge to approve of those estimates. The committee would have the opportunity of examining them in detail. The right hon. gentleman had, however, urged two or three objections to the proposition of his noble friend, to which he (Mr. Canning) felt himself competent to give an answer, without touching on any of those parts of the question which would be better reserved for the investigation of the committee. He should apply himself first, to that part of the speech of the right hon. gentleman which came last in order; namely, his remarks on the continuation for life of the salaries of her late majesty's household. He could assure the right hon. gentleman, that the present proposition was copied exactly from two distinct precedents. In the case of the demise of queen Caroline, and in that of the princess dowager of Wales (which though not strictly a case of a demise of a queen was à fortiori a justification of the present proposition) all the officers and domestics of those illustrious personages, retired on their full salaries. The right hon. gentleman had expressed some surprise at the statement of his noble friend; that salary constituted but half the real emoluments of such situations. The meaning of his noble friend was, that when the amount of advantages derived from the use of apartments, table, carriages, and other conveniences were taken into account, they were found to constitute in many instances, the most valuable part of the emo.. luments of such situations, especially for the female part of the establishments; these of course entirely ceased, with actual attendance. It would be evident, therefore, that the bare salaries on which the as only one person could be called a reigning prince at the same time in the country. Yet in 1812, 10,000l. a year in addition was granted to her majesty. Now he submitted, that if the same sum were deemed necessary to defray the expense of the duke of York upon his new appointment, that sum should rather be paid out of the privy purse, than saddled upon the country. The physicians were, it appeared, to be paid out of the proposed grant, and to that part of the proposition he could, of course, feel no objection. He next came to the proposed remuneration to be granted to retired servants of his majesty out of the privy purse. On this head it was asserted, that the proceeding was founded on the presumed wishes of the sovereign, and what he would have most probably himself done, if enabled to exercise a discretion. Who could say in what way, or in favour of what particular person, his majesty would exercise that discretion? What man upon earth could decide whom it would please his majesty thus to remunerate? Even if the sovereign felt such a disposition towards one servant at one period of his life, who could say that such a disposition would have remained unaltered? It was too much to contend, that independently of those persons whom his majesty had been in the habit of rewarding, it was certain that he would, had he regained his health, have rewarded others, and upon this presumption to found their title to a provision by parliament. A thousand such cases might have occurred, but it was beyond the wit of man to select them now. They were at present considering things as they stood in the natural course of the establishment, and there was no pretence for contending that such allowances should be take from the privy purse. To the maintaining of all that had been done by the king himself he had not the slightest objection. Next, as to the remuneration to the physicians. On that point the noble lord had not given any explanation. It was stated to be 32,000l. per annum. That he believed to be an over-statement, the amount being, he believed, 28,000l. Such a sum as that must strike every man as enormous. It was, therefore, but justice to explain it. If, in what he was about to state, the noble lord conceived there was any indelicacy, he had only to express in any manner such a feeling, and he would not persevere. His desire was only to give a reason why he would not press any objec tion to a charge which at first view must strike every person as enormous. He had then been given to understand, that when his majesty was unhappily visited with the affliction under which he laboured, and was about to be committed to the care of physicians, he had made it his most earnest prayer to the illustrious personage, standing in the nearest relation to him, that he never should be exclusively placed under the care of physicians of a certain description, to whom patients in his majesty's condition were consigned, without having always in attendance one out of three other physicians, whom he particularly named. That promise he obtained from her late most excellent majesty, and it was by her most religiously kept. That promise being once made, it was his opinion should, under all circumstances, be most sacred. If the consciousness of such a disposition could in any degree alleviate the sufferings of his affliction, to remove it would be a most barbarous act. But, as one of those physicians, during the day, would be sufficient for the purpose, he was disposed to think some medium might be struck out, from whence a considerable saving might be derived to the country.On what had fallen from the noble lord, relative to the remuneration to the servants of her late majesty, he felt himself much in the dark. They were to have the whole of their salaries during their lives; but, added the noble lord, that was but the half of what they before got.-He never knew that fact before. So that these servants, when the country supposed they had salaries of but 500l. per annum, were actually receiving 1,000l. If that was the case, one would suppose that they had already received full remuneration for the whole of their deserts. They had been paid beforehand too, and the country had a claim upon them for the interest. Still, if it were the common practice on the demise of the queen to continue such salaries for life, he was not disposed to object to it on this occasion. He had heard, that the practice was, to give the salaries for life to the female servants; but he never understood the rule was applied to male servants. Nevertheless, it was contended, that the whole charge ought to remain-a truth, if it were one, for which he was sorry, as it would cost the country 25,000l. a year. He had no wish to detract from the real splendor and dignity of the crown, and he would not oppose this regulation,, if it |