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Exchequer Consolidation Acts.

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3,000,000l. without interest, they will now
"formerly the public had the use of
have 6,000,000l., but yet they gain nothing
by it."
metic. If he took the matter rightly, the
He did not understand this arith-
country was in future to have the use of
6,000,000l. of these balances: if so, he
would ask, must they not be 3,000,000.
better off than they were when they had
the loan of 3,000,000%.?

have accrued from having adopted it sooner, as the plan formerly resorted to was as good as this of applying the 6,000,000l. to the use of government. That, however, was a question which would afterwards come under discussion. Both plans had been before the House, and it had then been thought better to take the three millions, than the floating benefit of the Bank exchanges. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he, as a member of the committee, felt the diffi- that when, some years ago, the hon. gen The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, culty of bringing forward matters connected with the inquiry of the committee. did not oppose the principle, but merely tleman adverted to a plan of this kind, he For the same reason, it would be impos- stated, that it could not be carried into sible for his right hon. friend at present effect, without breaking faith with the to bring forward any plan of supply, with- Bank. He believed the new system would out exposing himself to questions respect- be advantageous in a very material deing the arrangements of the committee, gree; and certainly the Bank were making which it would be improper to answer. considerable sacrifices. The country stood Without knowing what was to be the re- in a much better situation than in Mr. sult of the committee above stairs, it was, Perceval's time. They were now about indeed, impossible to enter into any plan to take six millions for seven; whereas, in of supply for the year. Whatever that the former period, Mr. Perceval took report might be, he hoped they would be 5,000,000l. as a compensation for twelve able to discharge their duty by providing millions. At the same time, it must be for their peace establishment, and for the observed, that the saving of interest would support of the public credit. They wished not be so large now, as when the Bank to make such efforts, not on partial state- advanced 3,000,000l. free of interest. Six ments, but on a relative view of the ex-millions, it was true, would be accumupenditure, the revenue, the funded debt, and the state of the public credit: and he trusted the result of their exertions would be the diminution of that debt, and the confirmation of that credit. He hoped the committee would use the utmost diligence in preparing their report, and that when it came before the House, they would be enabled to do their duty to the country, and to make good the promise which they had given, and in which the right hon. gentleman had joined, that they would not hesitate to make the necessary sacrifices, in order to support the public credit.

Mr. Tierney. The right hon. gentleman forgets one species of severity to which I alluded, I mean the severity of retrenchment. The absence of that severity presses hard on the people, who are to pay, but is never thought of by those who are in the habit of receiving.

Mr. Grenfell was glad, that these balances would now be available for the public service. For the last four years, there were generally 6,000,000l. in hand, and those balances consisted at present of about 7,000,000l. The argument of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) was a strange one. He contended thus

lated in the Exchequer, at the end of each quarter; but they could not reckon as if the interest on that entire sum was saved from the commencement of the quarter. It was, in fact, a gradually increasing fund, and not a fund formed on the moment.

7,000,000l., and I understand we are to
Mr. Grenfell. The average balance is
have the use of six of them. Is this so?
Are we to have six or only three millions?

six millions which we are to take from the
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.-The
Exchequer are not forthcoming at the be-
a growing fund. We take the money as
ginning of the quarter. It is an accruing,
fast as it comes in; but we cannot, at the
commencement of a quarter, say, that we
have small sums coming in from time to
save the interest on 6,000,000l. As we
time, to form the 6,000,000l. It is only
for a very short period that we can say we
save the interest on that entire sum.

mittee would let the country know its
Mr. Protheroe hoped the secret com-
real situation. His right hon. friend had
talked of severe measures. If such were
necessary; if there were any unsound
parts in our financial system, the chan-
cellor of the exchequer ought to let the

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country know the fact, that they might
be prepared for the worst.
The resolution was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Tuesday, March 9.

BARNSTAPLE ELECTION.] Lord Clive informed the House, that the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Barnstaple Election, had determined, "That sir Manasseh Masseh Lopes, bart., is not duly elected a burgess to serve in this present parliament for the said borough: that Francis Molineux Ommanney, esq. is duly elected a burgess to serve in this present parliament for the said borough: that the last election for the said borough, so far as relates to the said sir Manasseh Masseh Lopes is void: that the said petition did not appear to the committee to be frivolous or vexatious: that the opposition to the said petition did not appear to the committee to be frivolous or vexatious."

Lord Clive also informed the House, that the Committee had come to the following Resolutions:

keepers of Mary-le-bone, praying that the Insolvent Debtors act might not be renewed; or that if it was the intention of the legislature to prolong a measure of this kind, care should be taken to protect the honest creditor from the frauds of the dishonest debtor. The hon. baronet said, that there was not one of these petitioners who had not been defrauded by the effect of this act.

Mr. Brougham presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Westminster against the renewal of the Insolvent Debtors act. This petition was, he said, signed by a number of respectable tradesmen, and entitled to attention. He did not, however, at all agree with the petitioners as to the propriety of repealing the act alluded to, while he fully concurred with them in thinking that that act required revision and amendment. He was decidedly of opinion that the principle of this law should be preserved; yet as the execution of that principle required that the court appointed to carry it into effect, should be generally sitting, it was desirable to provide, by every possible means, for the improvement of the machinery of that court, and especially to guard against any facility for the release or encouragement of fraudulent debtors. To these points the committee about to be proposed by his learned friend, the attorney-general, would, no doubt, direct its most diligent inquiry.

1. "That it appears to this committee, that sir Manasseh Masseh Lopes, bart. was, by his agents, guilty of bribery and treating at the last election for the borough of Barnstaple, and is thereby incapacitated to serve in parliament at such election. 2. That it appears, by evidence before this committee, that such a general system of corruption was practised at the The Solicitor General said, it was the last election for the said borough of Barn-intention of the attorney-general to move staple, as to render it incumbent on the for the appointment of a committee to committee to submit the same to the most consider this subject with all the petitions serious consideration of the House, in concerning it which had been received by order that such proceedings may be in- the House: and that it never was his obstituted thereon as the House in its wis-ject to propose the renewal of the law aldom may think proper to adopt."

luded to in its present state. The attorneyThe said report, and the minutes of the general, he was enabled to say, concurred proceedings of the Committee were ordered fully in the opinion just expressed by his to lie on the table; and, on the motion of learned friend as to the justice and necesthe noble lord, it was agreed " That Mr. sity of preserving the principle of the Speaker do not issue his warrant to the Insolvent act. This, indeed, he found to clerk of the Crown to make out a new be the impression of all men of good feelwrit for the electing of a burgess to serve ing and sound intellect. All that apin the present parliament for the borough peared to be looked for by reflecting men of Barnstaple, in the room of sir Ma- on all sides was, the correction of the denasseh Masseh Lopes, bart. whose election ficiencies which were understood to behas been determined to be void, till Tues-long to the law in its present shape. Upon day, 16th March."

INSOLVENT DEBTORS ACTS.] Sir James Graham presented a petition, signed by 1,500 of the principal shop

an investigation of these deficiencies before a committee, and upon the introduction of any amendments required, he had no doubt that the law would be found to operate with due regardto the fair claims

of both the honest creditor and the unfortunate debtor.

sional assignee, who had, within the last twelve months, received property of that Mr. Waithman wished, if a committee description to the amount of 15,000l. all of should be appointed, that there might be which would, of course, have been exselected, for that purpose, some practical pended in prison, if it were not for the mercantile men, who were acquainted Insolvent acts. The learned gentleman with the subject in all its details. He concluded with expressing his hope, that feared that if some such were not chosen, the merits of this case would be fully inthose who might constitute the committee quired into by the committee, for the apwould not have that sympathy for the si-pointment of which it was his intention to tuation of unfortunate creditors which the frauds they had experienced called for.

Mr. Brougham, adverting to what had been said by the hon. member for Carlisle, namely, that every one of the petitioners from Mary-le-bone parish, comprising between 14 and 1500 persons, had suffered from the operation of the act, observed, that the hon. baronet must be under a mistake, as a vast number of the signatures to that petition were from persons who were not at all in trade.

Sir James Graham said, that the petition alluded to was signed by many shopkeepers and tradesmen, and that every one of a deputation which had called upon him on the subject, had assured him that he had suffered some fraud through the insolvent acts. But he could go farther, and say that he had never conversed with a man of property upon the subject, who had not complained of being defrauded by these acts. Debtors had indeed become so cavalier in consequence of these acts, that when pressed by any creditor for payment, nothing was so common as to say, "I'll give you a bill at three months on lord Redesdale." But the execution of this law was almost as exceptionable as its provisions. What would the House think of the clerk of the court for carrying this law into effect, being appointed the universal assignee, or treasurer of the debtors released, and of no dividend, as he understood, having ever been paid to any creditors.

The Attorney General observed, that the hon. baronet was completely misinformed with regard to the clerk of the court, who, so far from being the universal, was only the provisional assignee, of the debtors, to which place he was appointed by the learned serjeant who presided in that court, with a view to take care of any property which might be surrendered by, or found in the possession of, any debtors at the time of their release. But the moment the creditors of any debtor appointed an assignee, such property was given up to them by this provi

move.

Mr. George Lamb observed, that undoubtedly great abuses had taken place under the Insolvent acts, but yet he believed that those abuses were not so considerable as some gentlemen appeared to think. He was of opinion, that the law required amendment, while he was satisfied that its principle ought to be preserved. He agreed as to the propriety of postponing all discussion upon this subject until the proposed committee should have made its report, and he hoped and trusted that the consequence of that report would be the adoption of a measure equally calculated to secure the interest of the honest creditor, and to save the honest but unfortunate debtor from unmerited suffering.

Ordered to lie on the table.

PENRYN ELECTION.] Sir C. Burrell moved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate on the motion "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire further into the existence of certain corrupt and illegal practices which appear to have prevailed in the Borough of Penryn, previous to and during the late election, and to report their opinion, together with their observations thereupon, to the House." The hon. baronet observed, that the minutes of the committee having been entered as read, the House was in possession of the grand features of the case, and it was his intention, if he succeeded in carrying two prefatory resolutions, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of this borough. His resolutions would be, "1. That it appears to this House, that there was the most notorious bribery and corruption in the last election of members to serve in parliament for the borough of Penryn; and further, that such practices are not new nor casual in the said borough, having been before brought under the notice of the House, in the year 1807, by a special report from the committee which tried the merits of the petition of John Trevannion

and others. 2. That it is the opinion of this House, that the said bribery and corruption require the most serious consideratíon of parliament."

The motion for a select committee was withdrawn; after which the two resolutions were agreed to, and sir Charles obtained leave to bring in a bill "for the preventing of Bribery and Corruption in the Election of Members to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Penryn." The Minutes of the Proceedings of the Penryn Election Committee in 1807 was, on the motion of Mr. Wynn, ordered to be reprinted.

GAME LAWS.] Mr. Brand, in rising, pursuant to his notice, to bring forward his motion for the amendment of the game laws, observed, that the subject was one of the highest importance, inasmuch as it was intimately connected with the interest, the happiness, and moral conduct of the lower orders of society. For the benefit of those members of the present parliament who were not members of the last, he would inform them, that in the year 1816, a report on this subject was made by a very numerous, intelligent, and industrious committee of that House, to the concluding passage of which he requested particular attention. The committee observed, that they would not, at a late period of the session, introduce to the House any measure, on a subject which had so great a variety of bearings; but they cherished sanguine expectations, that a bill, founded on the principles recognised by the common law of the land, that principle being, that the property of game was in the individual possessing the land where it was discovered, might be advantageously resorted to, by which the present system of the game laws might be improved, and thefore they came to the following resolution:" That all game should be considered the property of the person on whose land such game should be found." He approved entirely of this principle; and he had long wished to bring forward a measure founded on the view of which the committee had professed their approbation. In order to show the efficacy of the plan which he should submit to their notice, it would be necessary for him to enter into some minute details on the subject, which he would however endeavour to make as concise as possible. He was afraid, nevertheless, that in spite of all his endeavours, he should not be

able to command the attention of the House during all the remarks which he should make to them, because the subject was so extensive, and spread over so large a space of history as totally to defy any summary abridgment. He would, however, as briefly and as perspicuously as possible, call the notice of the House to a subject, which, in the minds of thinking men, yielded scarcely to any that could be brought before them as a question of domestic policy, and of moral interest. It was curious to follow the history of the game laws-to mark their origin, in feudal barbarism, and to trace their growth through various periods, when a false policy was mistaken for wisdom. So early as the 13th of Richard 2nd, there was a statute, establishing a sort of qualification, as necessary to enable a man to destroy game. That qualification was 20 marks a year. But still the statute seemed to proceed on the principle of ratione soli on the principle, that the property in game belonged to the person on whose land the game was found. This continued to be the law of England for some time; but was in a certain degree abrogated by the operation of the statute of uses, of fines and recoveries, and other legal technicalities, into which he should then decline to enter, inasmuch as the original proprietors found that they had not only parted with their lands, in these fictitious conveyances, but also with the rights which they enjoyed from those lands. They had not only, they perceived, given up their lands, but they found also that they had parted with that indulgence, the indulgence of taking game all over their estates, which their predecessors had enjoyed. The consequence was, that all those statutes had grown up, which encroached on the privileges once enjoyed by the possessors of the landstatutes that were in fact perpetually increasing. The main law of this kind was the 23rd of Charles 2nd, by which the existing qualification was rendered necessary. By the system tolerated by this law, all the personal, all the leasehold property of the country, was excluded from the possession of the game. It seemed that the immediate proprietors, and those who had manors, were not contradistinguished by this law-and the latter finding, by the species of qualification it required, that they were themselves, in many instances, precluded from procuring game, hit upon the system of

of both the honest creditor and the unfor- | sional assignee, who had, within the last tunate debtor.

Mr. Waithman wished, if a committee should be appointed, that there might be selected, for that purpose, some practical mercantile men, who were acquainted with the subject in all its details. He feared that if some such were not chosen, those who might constitute the committee would not have that sympathy for the situation of unfortunate creditors which the frauds they had experienced called for.

Mr. Brougham, adverting to what had been said by the hon. member for Carlisle, namely, that every one of the petitioners from Mary-le-bone parish, comprising between 14 and 1500 persons, had suffered from the operation of the act, observed, that the hon. baronet must be under a mistake, as a vast number of the signatures to that petition were from persons who were not at all in trade.

Sir James Graham said, that the petition alluded to was signed by many shopkeepers and tradesmen, and that every one of a deputation which had called upon him on the subject, had assured him that he had suffered some fraud through the insolvent acts. But he could go farther, and say that he had never conversed with a man of property upon the subject, who had not complained of being defrauded by these acts. Debtors had indeed become so cavalier in consequence of these acts, that when pressed by any creditor for payment, nothing was so common as to say, "I'll give you a bill at three months on lord Redesdale." But the execution of this law was almost as exceptionable as its provisions. What would the House think of the clerk of the court for carry ing this law into effect, being appointed the universal assignee, or treasurer of the debtors released, and of no dividend, as he understood, having ever been paid to any creditors.

The Attorney General observed, that the hon. baronet was completely misinformed with regard to the clerk of the court, who, so far from being the universal, was only the provisional assignee, of the debtors, to which place he was appointed by the learned serjeant who presided in that court, with a view to take care of any property which might be surrendered by, or found in the possession of, any debtors at the time of their release. But the moment the creditors of any debtor appointed an assignee, such property was given up to them by this provi

twelve months, received property of that description to the amount of 15,000l. all of which would, of course, have been expended in prison, if it were not for the Insolvent acts. The learned gentleman concluded with expressing his hope, that the merits of this case would be fully inquired into by the committee, for the appointment of which it was his intention to move.

Mr. George Lamb observed, that undoubtedly great abuses had taken place under the Insolvent acts, but yet he believed that those abuses were not so considerable as some gentlemen appeared to think. He was of opinion, that the law required amendment, while he was satisfied that its principle ought to be preserved. He agreed as to the propriety of postponing all discussion upon this subject until the proposed committee should have made its report, and he hoped and trusted that the consequence of that report would be the adoption of a measure equally calculated to secure the interest of the honest creditor, and to save the honest but unfortunate debtor from unmerited suffering.

Ordered to lie on the table.

PENRYN ELECTION.] Sir C. Burrell moved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate on the motion "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire further into the existence of certain corrupt and illegal practices which appear to have prevailed in the Borough of Penryn, previous to and during the late election, and to report their opinion, together with their observations thereupon, to the House." The hon. baronet observed, that the minutes of the committee having been entered as read, the House was in possession of the grand features of the case, and it was his intention if he succeeded in carrying two pref move for leave to better regulation resolutions would to this House, th notorious bribery last election of m liament for the b further, that such nor casual in the been before broug the House, in the report from the co merits of the petitio

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