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queen, their emphatically Protestant | particulars, much worse than even that of queen, to protect, at the expense of their brethren of the same faith in Ireland. much wealth, and at the hazard of But let me not be misunderstood. Let excommunication and death, this Protes tant land, against what too?-Against no less than the consecrated banner of the pope himself [Hear, hear!]. Let the wiser policy of even those violent times testify that even then a very important branch of the legislature, and the highest posts of honour and responsibility, both in army and in state, might be safely laid open to them. The earl of Effingham, who commanded queen Elizabeth's fleet against the popish armada, was himself a Roman Catholic. The lord Howard, another Catholic peer, was, at the same time, lord warden of the Marches, to hold the frontier of Protestant England against Scotland; part Presbyterian, part Catholic. The lord Pembroke, another Catholic peer, at the same time was governor of Dover Castle, held the advanced work of Protestant England against the Catholic continent. And the same lord Pembroke had held the great seal of England. When enfranfranchised, and before penal laws had divided our country into political sects, were the Roman Catholics enemies to the constitutional safeguards of your country's liberties? Magna Charta they gave you! The integrity of your laws they vindicated by their ever-memorable protest against popish innovation, and the Bill of Rights itself is but an instrument declaratory of those rights and privileges which you derived from your Catholic ancestors [Hear, hear!]. As the best pledge of their attachment now they point to his tory, they point to conduct, they throw in, as proof and earnest, that scrupulous faith, that nice unblemished honour, which, by the oaths which you prescribe, are most unfortunately and most unjustly made the very means and instrument of their disfranchisement. Were it not for that faith and honour, where are your securities? With that faith and honour as your securities, against what is it that you seek to protect yourselves by acts of exclusion? Sir, I present this petition on behalf of the English Roman Catholics only; and that for many reasons. But principally because the condition of these petitioners, as is well known, is, in many

the petitioners not be misunderstood. The measure of justice which I think we are bound to extend to them cannot be confined to one class or description of your Roman Catholic subjects. Whatever really useful measures of relief are in the wisdom and humanity of parliament to be founded on this petition must be for the relieving and conciliating all within your dominions of the Roman Catholic persuasion who now disdain to barter religious scruples for political power. If your petitioners, pleading in their own behalf, inviduously separated their interests from those of their suffering brethren in Ireland, I can only say that deeply as I feel the strength of their cause, highly as I admire their uniform conduct I should feel myself to be a still more ineffective advocate in their cause, than even now, nor, with the opinions and feelings I entertain, could I make myself the humble instrument of laying their petition now before you. But on the other hand, if, from the pernicious advice of some, or from the irregular zeal of others, partial instances may be adduced to throw discredit on certain persons interested in the general result of a Roman Catholic petition, let us for God's sake remember the many years of severe mortification and undeserved restraint and insult they have endured, let us remember that they have feelings and passions like our own, and let us pardon something to that genuine English free spirit which is restless under restraint and proudly jealous of suspicion. Let us, above all, remember that our object and our duty is, by certain indulgent allowances for suffering impatience, to conciliate and unite, not to accuse and alienate. Every law which excludes any portion of your subjects from the public service is, pro tanto, a positive evil to the state, and can be justified only by showing, clearly showing, some greater and equally immediate evil against which by such law of exclusion you protect yourselves. In this spirit, Sir, I hope that this petition may be received. To the humanity, to the wisdom, to the justice, of this House I commit it, humbly moving that it be now laid upon your table [Hear, hear!].

INDE X

TO VOL. XXXIX.

INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

Address on the Prince Regent's Speech at | India; War in, 760.

the Opening of the Session, 20.
Aliens and Denizens Bill, 993.

Bank of England; Secret Committee on the
State of, appointed, 202, 289, 1392, 1420.

Bank Restriction, 78.

Bank of Scotland, 993.

Care of his Majesty's Person Bill, 80, 105,

124.

Cash Payments Bill, 1392, 1420.

Insolvent Debtors, 205.

King's Person; Bill for the Care of 50, 105,

124.

Lunatics Estates in Chancery, 460.

Navy; State of the, 1161.

Offices in Reversion, 385.

Chimney Sweepers Regulation Bill, 899, 981. Prince Regent's Speech on Opening the Ses-

Coal Duties, 992.

Congress at Aix-la-Chapelle, 422.

Consolidated Fund Produce Bill, 1173.
Cotton Factories, 288, 339, 652.

Criminal Laws; Petition from London com-
plaining of the, 119.

Dutch Colonies, 156.

sion, 17.

Prince Regent's Message respecting her late
Majesty's Establishment, 325.

Prisons of the Country; State of the, 79, 509,
645.

Roman Catholic Claims, 1110.

Royal Household Bill, 1162, 1230.

Scots Jury Court, 1460.

Hastings, Marquis of; Vote of Thanks to, Slave Trade, 510.

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Address on the Prince Regent's Speech on Bank Restriction, 72, 104, 108, 131, 188, 212,

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Bank of England; Committee on the State of Caledonian Canal, 1119.

the, 280, 350, 1398.

Bank of Ireland, 440, 1423.

Bank Notes, Forgery of, 73, 137.
Bank Prosecutions for Forgery, 137,

Camelford Election, 1448.

Care of his Majesty's Person Bill, 333.
Cash Payments Bill, 1598.

Chancery Court of; Delay in the, 1261.

operation it confounded the innocent within the eyes of God and man for all the
consequences.

the guilty. Mr. Terry, alluding to the
extensive prevalence of illicit distillation,
recommended the erection of barracks
between the different military stations.
It was by military force alone that the
system was carried into execution. In
the counties of Donegal and Derry prosecu-
tions were often anticipated by the objects
of them lodging informations against the
townlands. Judge Fletcher had said, that
the system of which he complained was
as repugnant to the principles of justice
and the common sense of mankind as it
was to the general spirit of British law. It
appeared to have originated in a des-
perate attempt to collect revenue by any
means and at any sacrifice. Amongst its
other evils it violated the first rule of evi-
dence, by allowing a party interested to
prove his own case; it encouraged per-
jury, and induced juries to find verdicts
against the clearest evidence. The ex-
cise officer, seeking merely to put money
into his own pocket, connived at the illicit
still, and entered into stipulations; the
effect of which was, that some old worn-
out still was seized, and the town land
prosecuted for the fine. Not only civil
trespasses, but perjuries, conspiracies,
and assassinations, were multiplied to a
frightful degree; and in the county of
Donegal nearly the whole of the busi-
ness, public and private, arose from this
source. This was the opinion of a
learned judge, speaking from long ex-
perience, and upon mature consideration.
Why the system of small stills, which
was found so advantageous in Scotland,
should not be equally beneficial in Ireland,
surpassed his comprehension. If proper
inspectors were appointed, and a severe
punishment inflicted upon the illicit dis-
tiller himself the inhabitants at large
would exert themselves, not to screen
him from, but to bring him to, justice.
If conciliatory instead of coercive mea-
sures were adopted, he had no doubt
that the character drawn by sir John
Davis of the Irish people would be fully
realized. That writer had declared, that
if protected against wrong, there was no
nation on earth more attached to the prin-
ciple of equal and impartial justice
[Hear!]. He should conclude by se-
conding the motion for a committee, and
by expressing his feelings that unless the
right hon. the chancellor of the exche-
quer should apply some remedy to this
enormous evil, he would be responsible
F

Mr. Leslie Foster wished to call the at-
tention of the House to a consideration
of the facts in this case; and if upon a
fair review of them, an alteration in the
mode of collecting the revenue on spirits
in Ireland should be deemed necessary,
he would lend his cordial assistance to the
undertaking. The question was important
in every respect, and it was right that the
House should be aware that in its decision
depended one-fourth of the Irish revenue.
In the last year the amount of this branch
of it was 1,300,000l., being 239,000l. ex-
cess above the produce of the preceding
year. This improvement was a great fi-
nancial recommendation, although it had
certainly no bearing on the moral part of
the question. There was no system of re-
gulation that could be devised under
which this revenue could be collected
without some cases of violence and hard-
ship. In the course of last year 1,300
illicit stills had been destroyed, but during
the prevalence in 1811, 12, and 13, of
the system of small stills, which it was
now proposed to renew, 6,588 private
stills had been destroyed in one of those
years, and scarcely any left in the country.
Yet in the following year upwards of
6,000 were again destroyed, and more than
5,000 in the following. All this had been
accomplished by military force, and with
a much greater degree of violence than
had been exercised since the change which
had been effected in the law. The mis-
chief was before so extensive, that the
commercial chambers of Belfast and other
towns presented petitions, stating that
the regular distilleries could not be
carried on, and that the morals of the
people were greatly deteriorated by the
dangerous practices which prevailed.
These petitions were referred to a com-
mittee, which was of opinion, that the
only efficacious mode of collecting the
revenue was the system of fining town
lands, and a bill to that effect was accord-
ingly introduced by an hon. namesake of
his, in the year 1814, and passed into a
law. The vice of illicit distillation had at
that time taken such fast possession of
the champaign country, that the sufferings
produced in eradicating it were, during
the first year, of extraordinary severity.
It was gratifying, however, to find, that
the amount of fines had been rapidly de-
creasing since, in all the counties of Ire
land, except Donegal and Tyrone, the

could produce evidence that they had not
connived at the illicit distillation, the fines
would be remitted. But, from his own
experience, limited as it was, he had
reason to believe that the inhabitants of
the town lands were almost always con-

the system of small stills was likely to
cure this evil, and the example of Scot-
land had been adduced in support of that
opinion. In Scotland there were 39
small stills licensed, each paying upwards
of 500l., and yielding a total revenue of
20,000l. Now in Ireland there were 12
small stills, larger indeed than the Scotch,
but paying 9,600l. a-piece, and produc-
ing a gross revenue of 115,200l. There
certainly was something in this which he
could not understand.
He had a great
respect for Scotland, and did not wish to
cast any reflections on the manner in
which the revenue was collected in that
country; but he could not but observe,
that the revenue derived from the Scotch
stills was far less than was derived from
the Irish. If the House were prepared
to introduce the system of small stills
into Ireland, and to renounce the re-
venue altogether, the consequence
would be, that they would have the coun-
try filled with smugglers with licences,
instead of smugglers without them.

mountainous nature of whose situation
had always afforded peculiar opportunities
for the commission of such offences. It
appeared by the report of two officers,
Mr. Coffley and Mr. Logie, high in that
branch of the public service, that 51 stills
had, however, been voluntarily surren-scious of the guilt. It had been said, that
dered in Donegal: that more might be
expected; and that the town lands were
generally willing to enter into securities,
if the law were not to undergo any altera-
tion. It was true that the board of ex-
cise had had the misfortune to employ a
person in the first instance who had com-
mitted many unjustifiable acts in the
county of Donegal; but he, together with
two of his assistants, had been subse-
quently removed. He was sorry to say,
that much perjury was certainly committed
on account of the trials for illicit distilla-
tion; but at the same time he was con-
vinced, that it would be greatly exceed-
ed by the quantity of perjury which would
be occasioned by that species of trial
which it was proposed to substitute for
the present. It was clear, that if perjury
prevailed under the present system, it
must become still more prevalent if the
prosecutions were directed against the
persons of offenders, and if the liberty of
the individuals were at stake. Much had
been said about the evils and expense
occasioned by the employment of so great
a military force under the present system;
the House, however, ought to be in-
formed, that under the system of 1811,
12, and 13, when the present laws
were suspended and small stills were
licensed, great assistance had been derived
from the military. From the report of
the commissioners of excise, it appeared,
that during these three years, there was
paid to the military and the officers of ex-
cise no less a sum than 161,000l.; while
at present the average charge might be
taken at 50,000l. a year; so that the House
were deceived if they thought that by
substituting the small still system, they
would get clear of military hunting and
legal prosecutions. It had been said that
the principle of the present system was
to punish the innocent for the guilty; but
in his opinion, its general operation was
to give the innocent an inducement to
prevent the guilt for which they were pu-
nished; and that indeed, was the only
ground on which it could be defended.
Besides, the board of excise had the
power of remitting fines; and he was cer-
tain that whenever the parties convicted

Sir Henry Parnell trusted it was unne-
cessary to say, after all the House had
heard, that the present system of law was
most severe, unjust, and unwise. He
hoped the House would agree with him in
thinking, that the time had now arrived
for getting rid of that system altogether,
for surely no case had been made out to
justify the law. The hon. gentleman
(Mr. Foster) had stated that the system
of small distilleries had been tried, and
failed-he (Sir H. Parnell) was satisfied
that that statement was not correct-
every gentleman who had attended to the
subject knew that the small stills had
never had a fair trial-they were impeded
and discouraged in many ways; indeed it
was impossible that they could have ex-
isted under the regulations that had been
made-the interests of the small
prietors were always obliged to give way
to those of the proprietors of large distil-
leries; but, above all, they laboured un-
der the power the commissioners had of
withholding licences, instead of giving
every man a fair opportunity of employing
his capital and his industry in the trade.
The establishment of small stills would

pro-

have a powerful effect in putting down | tillation from grain was suspended; and it
illicit distillation-the proprietors of small was not possible, therefore, for the small
distilleries would find it their interest to still system to be established, when no
put it down-the people would be induced distillation was allowed to go on. Was
to assist in putting down illegal distillation, it fair, then, to say that this system was
and until they assisted, it could not be put established in 1810, 11, and 12? The
down, though the country might be co- gentlemen from Ireland, not taking into
vered with military force and revenue of consideration that all legal distillation was
ficers. As to the statement made by the suspended, came to the chancellor of the
hon. gentleman, to show that illegal distil- exchequer by acclamation for the repeal
lation was on the decline in Ireland, he of the system, who very properly listened
would observe, that in the first year he to them. He did not blame the chancel-
referred to, corn bore a very low price lor of the exchequer for acceding to their
in Ireland, there was no market, and it request, but he blamed the gentlemen of
resulted, as a matter of course, that the Ireland for allowing themselves to be run
superfluous corn should find its way into away with without experience. He had
illicit distillation; the third year he re- then opposed the recurrence to the fine
ferred to, there happened to be a high system, but nearly all the Irish members
price, and a sure market for corn, and the divided against him. Mr. Gregory, now
Irish farmer naturally exported it. The under secretary for Ireland, who was sent
same year was one of great distress in down to Innishowan, reported, that the
Ireland-besides, from the wetness of the effect of the fine system was such as to
season and the consequent want of fuel, beggar all description. This was af-
illicit distilleries were not worked by the ter the system had been in operation
people. These reasons would tend to many years. In 1812, the same gentle-
explain the statement made by the hon. man was sent down to the very same spot
gentleman; it was to these local, tempo- and the improvement under the new sys-
rary, and incidental causes that the alter-tem was so great as to be hardly credible.
ation was to be traced, and not to the Having paid much attention to this sub-
effects of a system which was only preg-ject, and knowing from the most respect-
nant with public immorality, misfortune,
and discontent.

Mr. Wellesley Pole said, that in 1810,
when he held the office of Irish secretary,
he found the fine system in full operation.
On a representation of the horrors and
crimes committed under this system, and
of its inutility to prevent illicit distillation,
the then chancellor of the exchequer and
himself investigated the subject, and they
agreed to remit some of the fines, and to
suspend the operation of the act. His
hon. friend had said, that the small still
system had been in full operation in Ire-
land in 1810, 1811 and 1812. The fact
was, that the fine system was only sus-
pended in 1810. His friend, the chan-
cellor of the exchequer, who remained in
office after he himself had gone out, did
not encourage small stills-and in the ses-
sion of 1812, he had brought in a bill,
framed with the greatest care, the effect
of which he hoped would be to prevent
the necessity of recurring to the horrid
system of fines. But at the time this bill
was brought in, a circumstance took place
which changed the whole question; the
distillation from grain was then suspended.
The fine of the town lands system was only
suspended, and not repealed, and the dis-

able sources the effects of the fine system
in Ireland, no human power should induce
him to give it his support. In October
1816, when Mr. Terry, deputy chairman
of the commissioners of excise visited In-
nishowan, he found that the places where
illicit distillation flourished most, were
those very places which had already
been fined; for the illicit distillers resorted
to places which had nothing on them,
every thing having been carried off. The
same gentlemen who were almost unani-
mous in wishing the fine system in 1812,
were now unanimous against it. If it was
a grievance, it was a grievance of their
own seeking.

Lord Mount-Charles said, that at the
recent assizes in Donnegal, there were no
less than 300 town-lands fines trials. In
the late presentments of the grand jury,
application was made for a certain sum of
money, for the enlargement of the county
gaols, which had become necessary, in
consequence of the numbers confined from
inability to pay the fines.

Mr. V. Fitzgerald said, that though he
had been the person whose duty it was to
propose the re-enactment of the law
which had been held up to censure, he
hoped the House would do him the justice

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