Senator MALONE. We heard testimony from the head of WrightPatterson Field at Dayton, Ohio, that instead of the present production of the 7 or 8 tons of titanium per day, amounting to 2,500 or 2,600 tons per year, if we had available the amount of material which could be used by the designers of military and commercial aircraft, from 100,000 to 150,000 tons per year would probably be used.

Mr. MILLER. It is an astonishing figure.

Senator MALONE. I remember when your man, Dr. John Koster, at the Reno Laboratory of the Bureau of Mines some years ago, in the early thirties I believe, worked out and perfected the method of electrolytic manganese. He was working with other branches of your Bureau.

These results have all marked progress. In this committee, I have in mind following through to a conclusion as to how self-sufficient the United States might become in the production of strategic and critical minerals and materials and fuels with proper incentive and as sound governmental policy. We also intend to ascertain the selfsufficiency of the Western Hemisphere, because the further we go to obtain these materials the more difficult it will be to keep the sea lanes open.

So it may be that a 1-, 2-, or 3-year program of research and exploration might be necessary to determine the self-sufficiency of the Western Hemisphere for some of these more strategic materials. If the hearings determine that such a program is necessary, I think the committee will mention it in their report.

Now, Mr. Zinner, will you identify yourself for the record.

STATEMENT OF PAUL ZINNER, CHIEF, MINERALS DIVISION, BUREAU OF MINES, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. ZINNER. Mr. Chairman, my name is Paul Zinner. I am Chief of the Minerals Division of the Bureau of Mines.

I would like to introduce at this time two charts. The first appeared originally on page 179 of the Minerals Position paper, and the second appeared in the same paper on page 183.1 These have been modified and brought up to date in two ways. (See p. 45.)

Senator MALONE. First, I would like to ask you, Mr. Zinner, whether you are prepared this morning, after you make a general statement, to call the engineers in each particular field and area of minerals to complete the factual record of the production and acquisition of each of these materials either produced in the United States or brought into the United States from the Western Hemisphere, or from other foreign

nations.

Mr. ZINNER. That is correct. With more than 70 commodities under consideration here, it is virtually impossible for one man to retain all of the factual data. I must apologize for having so many people involved in this presentation, but this group represents the best concentration of knowledge that we can make, in the fuels and metals categories.

1 Investigation of Natural Resources, hearings before a subcommittee of the Committee on Public Lands, U. S. Senate, 80th Cong., May 15, 16, and 20, 1947.

With regard to these charts, they have been expanded to describe three areas, the first being the United States; the second representing the United States, Canada, and Mexico; and the third the Western Hemisphere. There have been a number of commodities added to the list that appeared in the original paper and some other modifications. I would like to explain the second chart. (See p. 45.) Senator MALONE. Which chart do you call the second?

Mr. ZINNER. The one describing our mineral position-actual, impending, and potential.

Senator MALONE. No. 1 is the bar chart?

Mr. ZINNER. That is right. On No. 2, you will notice that in each of the three areas we have commodities distributed in two columns. One represents the actual or impending position, and one the potential. If you will refer to the Western Hemisphere under the potential column, you will notice that, disregarding economics and a number of other conditions, and assuming improvements in technology and the validity of inferred resources, this chart indicates that the only commodity that we would be completely dependent upon from foreign sources-foreign to the Western Hemisphere is industrial diamonds.

I would like to caution that this is subject to a number of interpretations, and that we can justify this chart only by a detailed explanation of each of the commodities concerned. The word "commercial" appearing here in quotations presented the same difficulty that it did in your original Mineral Position paper. The definition of a "commercial" reserve, in one instance, might not apply necessarily to another commodity. I think the problem will be brought out as we proceed through these commodity discussions.

Senator MALONE. Let me ask you right there, Mr. Zinner, is not the word "commercial" used rather loosely and a relative term, meaning this, that the use of the word "commercial" would be appropriate in a discussion of competition within the United States, where concerns competing with each other, pay the same wages and are confronted with the same standard of living?

In other words, if we had zinc from mines in Utah and Colorado, and zinc from outside the United States imported and sold on the basis of our standard of living, then there would be direct competition between the mines involved. Each one of these mines would be considered commercial only if it could be profitably operated by paying the same wages, costs of materials, industrial insurance, unemployment insurance, social security, and other employees' benefits enjoyed by workmen in this country. That would be one definition of commercial. Another definition of "commercial" would be when we continue the direct competition from the lower wage countries to the United States. In that case, the United States mine would have to pay $12 or $15 a day for labor, plus industrial insurance, unemployment insurance, and social security, and the American costs of material, and compete with a mine in Morocco, where wages are very low, practically no such protection to the workers as industrial insurance, unemployment insurance, or social security. Then "commercial" takes on another meaning, does it not?

Mr. ZINNER. Exactly. That is the very difficulty we have, and the reason why the word "commercial" appears in quotations on both of these sheets.

Probably the outstanding example that we have is the case of iron ore. These sheets contemplate iron ore on the basis of past practice in the iron-mining industry, and their use of the word "commercial." It does not anticipate the iron formations which are, in fact, real resources in this country like the low-grade taconites and other ironformation materials, even though there will be something like 1 million tons of marketable product derived from such sources this year. That illustrates the problem we encounter in trying to put resource data in tabular form. That is why I urge there be careful interpretation of these charts.

Senator MALONE. I think in the long run you would agree with this statement, that the policies adopted by Congress will eventually help you in a definition of the term "commercial." In other words, our present practice is to bring in the foreign materials with practically no equalization of the disparity between our wage standard as compared to foreign wages. Labor costs in Morocco are about 11 cents an hour, and $1.80 and $2 and $2.25 per hour in this country. While it might take 4 or 5 Arabs to make up for 1 good Irishman in this country, you could pay the Moroccans and have $6 or $7 left. You are confused by the term "commercial" because we are confused in our national policy; is that right?

Mr. ZINNER. I think it is correct to state that legislative action and administrative action that bears directly on the mineral industry will certainly have an effect on how we use the term "commercial."

Senator MALONE. That is true, and you are going to be bound by the policies adopted, which we hope will be made within the next 6 or 7 months. As a matter of fact, for 20 years has it not been a little hard to pin down a commercial cost?

Mr. ZINNER. I think that is absolutely true. Again, in contemplating this chart, we were concerned with the word "commercial" in relation to lead and zinc resources. It was difficult to decide if we should make our cutoff on the basis of properties that can be operated today under present prices, or (2) whether this should include blocked-out ore that was minable at one time and was not being mined at the moment, or (3) whether it should include ore that had never been mined, but was definitely measured or indicated.

For the purpose of this presentation the estimated resources include all of those categories in the case of lead and zinc. The same criteria have not been used in tabulating some of the other commodities.

Senator MALONE. As a matter of fact, then, what you are trying to do in chart No. 1 is to show us what the immediate situation happens to be? Mr. ZINNER. This is based entirely on our present-day concept. Senator MALONE. In other words, in our manufacture and production of titanium, we are getting the rutile ore from Australia when as a matter of fact, engineers are fully aware of the ample supply of the ilmenite ore in the United States and Canada which would take the place of foreign rutile.

Mr. ZINNER. That is exactly true. That is the type of interpretation we have used in this second chart.

Senator MALONE. In other words, the second chart is an interpretation of the first to show what you really believe about the situation. Mr. ZINNER. That is right. In the second chart we anticipate eventual broad improvements in technology. We have I think good

reason to believe that. We have, for example, the case of quartz crystal, where technology has moved a commodity out of the critical category entirely into a satisfactory position. We have a number of other instances like that. Similarly, we have faith that technology will, in many instances, permit the employment of low-grade reserves that have never been mined or cannot conceivably be mined under present conditions.

Senator MALONE. We know what those conditions are. They are in direct competition with the low-wage labor of the world. Mr. ZINNER. That is right.

Senator MALONE. And this has slowly been brought about during the last 20 years. We are not discussing now whether that is a proper thing or not. Maybe Congress will decide it is proper and should be continued. Maybe it will decide it is not.

Not considering whether it is right or wrong, the United States producers have been in almost direct competition with the foreign low-wage-area producers, is that true?

Mr. ZINNER. I think in many of the metals that is absolutely true. Senator MALONE. Chart No. 2 is based upon the combined experience and technical knowledge of the Bureau of Mines of what could be done in this country and the Western Hemisphere. I say again that while there have been over the last 20 years several very learned reports, I know of no report with any basic information on mineralsand these materials that are generally classed in the mineral field— which did not contain basic information furnished by your organization. This information was then interpreted to a large degree-and we will let the evidence decide when we bring these organizations inbackwards and a lot of the information and advice they received from your Department was ignored.

Mr. ZINNER. I think that is true, Mr. Chairman. The facts that we will present here today have been available to most or all people who have been writing reports of one kind or another.

Senator MALONE. But perhaps they ignored this basic data in drawing their conclusions. In other words, there has been a political factor involved in the conclusions made in these reports. Would you not say that is a conservative statement?

Mr. ZINNER. I would not say always.

Senator MALONE. I did not mean always. But in the case of these scarce materials there has been a political factor, and that is, we should buy certain materials or a certain amount of money should be spent in certain countries for political purposes. That factor has been applied to the facts furnished by your Department which made the results and conclusions have little relation to the facts you supplied. Mr. ZINNER. I think that is possible.

Senator MALONE. Do you not think it is true?

Mr. ZINNER. I think in many cases it probably is. I just would not know.

Senator MALONE. Now, refer to your last column on your table No. 2. The reason I am skipping to that table is because the instructions to our committee are to determine the availability of these materials to the United States in wartime. We will determine through experienced military strategists before we finish the transportation lines which can be kept open in wartime. But I would say to you that the advice the committee is getting unofficially in that the

transportation lines from the Western Hempishere to this country can be kept open in time of war if we are properly prepared. However, there is real doubt that we can keep any interocean transportation lines open in case of an all out war.

Let us discuss the column in chart 2, labeled Western Hemisphere mineral position, actual and impending, and based on present technologic and economic conditions and commercial reserves. That is what you would consider a rather conservative viewpoint, I presume. Mr. ZINNER. That is right.

Senator MALONE. That is a rather conservative estimate.

Mr. ZINNER. That is right.

Senator MALONE. In that column, first without going into the listit is a rather complete list all the way from anthracite and bituminous coal, aluminum ores, beryllium, all the way down to titanium, zirconium, zinc, nitrates, phosphate rock, sulfur-we have little reason to worry about the availability of all these materials in the Western Hemisphere. As a matter of fact, from your list we can become selfsufficient if we have an effective program.

Mr. ZINNER. That is right. The program is most important, too. In that same column we have advanced technologic development on some commodities but it should not be inferred that this has been developed into a going concern. Some of this technology has not been proven or been reflected into production as yet. We know the technology and the resources, but we have no industry.

Senator MALONE. In other words, let us see if your idea corresponds to the chairman's views. The best assurance of an ample supply of such minerals and materials in time of war is a going-concern industry. Mr. ZINNER. That is the idea.

Senator MALONE. And the opinion of the Mining Bureau and its officials is that if proper attention is paid to the situation a goingconcern industry can establish virtual self-sufficiency for a long time. Mr. ZINNER. That is correct.

Senator MALONE. Now, we go to the list marked as list B. Right at that point, I am going to ask the reporter to copy the entire list under item A in chart 2.

(The list is as follows:)

WESTERN HEMISPHERE

ACTUAL OR IMPENDING

(Based on present technologic and economic conditions and on "commercial" reserves)

A. Virtual self-sufficiency assured for a long time

Anthracite, bituminous coal and lignite, helium, natural gas, petroleum, aluminum ores, antimony, arsenic, beryllium, bismuth, cadmium, copper, gallium, gold, indium, iron ore, lead, magnesium, molybdenum, nickel, platinum metals, rare earth metals, selenium, silver, tellurium, thallium, titanium (ilmenite), zinc, zirconium, barite, boron minerals, bromine, lithium (spodumene), nitrates, phosphate rock, potash, quartz crystal (radio grade), salt, steatite talc (for grinding), sulfur.

Senator MALONE. B describes commodities where there is complete or virtual dependence on foreign sources. I will ask the reporter to insert that at this point.